Item Courier

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Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:53 am

Sometimes, it's necessary to have a free or cheap Item Courier to come to you because you have been trapped and don't have rod; Item courier will bring you that rod. Please add the Item Courier for vamps so when they go and kill a humans base, they don't get trapped and the game ends in under 2 minutes-.-

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:50 am

Already suggested that rod should be free, I think it would be more simple. You just have not to forget it. And for those who say "get rod as soon as you have 100g" Well you can get trapped at the very start of the game if you make the mistake to enter a newbie base and that a decent human trap you in with emerald. Nothing you can do about it.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Greg on Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:42 am

Rod is good at 100 gold... Item Carrier would be good... If you forgot an item you could have it bring it to you... It should not be able to be teleported to and it should be Immune to all attack i think... Cause what if you had 20k gold worth of items and it died... Wouldn't that suck?

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:54 am

Englocked,

I'm not sure the point of your post. The reason I'm suggesting the "Item Courier" is to rule out the posibility of getting trapped in the first attempt at feed. Yes, it seems most logical to get rod once you have 100g. Sometimes you get trapped before that. That's the point of MY post.....
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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:07 pm

There is no way in hell a rod of teleportation should cost nothing at the beginning of the game. It would only take a shade to break any base at that point in time.

I was trapping a bunch of vamps aka "field testing" last week, and I thought it would be a good idea to add a base recall function (cooldown say 240-320s) on the Vampiric Research Center - which would teleport the vamp back to the blight if the vamp got trapped/etc. I was too lazy to post though Razz

Not sure if an item courier would work since I think it should cost some gold or else humans would all be buying their own item couriers

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:12 pm

GosuSheep wrote:Englocked,

I'm not sure the point of your post. The reason I'm suggesting the "Item Courier" is to rule out the posibility of getting trapped in the first attempt at feed. Yes, it seems most logical to get rod once you have 100g. Sometimes you get trapped before that. That's the point of MY post.....

I did understand the point of your post, I'm not sure you understood mine though. Maybe you should read it again Smile

To rqx : No, shades can be hired at like 1 minut mark and you can build your backup walls like 20 second after game has started. Besides, you can get shades into bases early regardless of what rod of teleportation cost.
When the shade is in, it's very unlikely that human will be able to kill it before you buy rod.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:32 pm

Englocked wrote: To rqx : No, shades can be hired at like 1 minut mark and you can build your backup walls like 20 second after game has started. Besides, you can get shades into bases early regardless of what rod of teleportation cost.
When the shade is in, it's very unlikely that human will be able to kill it before you buy rod.

The main vamp spawns at 55 seconds so I don't know why the shade hiring time is relevant. And no, shades cannot get into bases early but a vamp teleporting on the shade to get on the other side is what makes it imbalanced. I've played this game enough to know this. Making the rod of teleportation free is just as imbalanced as giving the vamp teleportation as a free and inherent ability

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:00 pm

What's revelant is that vamp can only hire shades after they spawned, actually they need to wait a couple of seconds to get enough gold to hire a shade. And since shades move as fast as vamp, teleporting to a shade that vamp previously did send in front of a human base is almost the same as vamp walking to that base after he spawns, it's a bit slower actually since vamp cannot hire shade as he spawns.

Making tele rod free would just help vamp to move more quickly around the map a bit earlier. I don't see why it would be imbalanced.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:03 pm

What's revelant is that vamp can only hire shades after they spawned, actually they need to wait a couple of seconds to get enough gold to hire a shade. And since shades move as fast as vamp, teleporting to a shade that vamp previously did send in front of a human base is almost the same as vamp walking to that base after he spawns, it's a bit slower actually since vamp cannot hire shade as he spawns.
Fail.
Making tele rod free would just help vamp to move more quickly around the map a bit earlier. I don't see why it would be imbalanced.
Shade detection costs the human ~50,000 lumber to start. I am not going to argue with you but I am glad you are not on the development team.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:25 pm

What fail? care to explain?

Wall of seeing cost 50k lumber, you are right. Now why would humans need to be able to see shades unless these shades are strong enough to kill their backup walls ?!

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:38 pm

The shade hiring time is still not relevant to anything. You can walk us through the first moments of buying a shade but your post is still a POS.

If you aren't a noob (I am having my doubts) you would know that shades are commonly used in conjunction with teleport to bypass a securing wall (aka wall jumping/hopping). The rod of teleportation does not only serve to increase the mobility of the vampire because it can be used for another purpose which is aggressively using it to wall jump.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:00 pm

Ok the shade hiring time is not revelant, then let's not talk about it. What is a POS?

I'm a noob who plays warcraft from the beginning and who did beat some world class players. I was rank 16 in nothrend solo ladder before last reset.
Oh wait I'm also a noob who tested a year ago how exactly the rod of teleportation works, so "wall jumping" never works vs me Smile

Anyway, the fact that it cost 100g or nothing won't change much about humans getting raped by "wall jumping". If you don't know how to counter it, you're screwed, wether it cost 100 or 0 gold.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rinxx420 on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:43 pm

uh...lich? i always use lich as a courier Very Happy
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Re: Item Courier

Post by MySpaceBarBroke on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:55 pm

I never use lich, i find it a waste of cash. pfft 2.5k
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:56 pm

Lich is perfect to feed on noobs with rain of ice :p and his auras really help marines

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Re: Item Courier

Post by MySpaceBarBroke on Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:58 pm

I never buy marines either, and rain of ice vs what harvestor?
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Re: Item Courier

Post by alvinchiew on Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:31 pm

i uses lich as my personal human slayer, wearing 1 cloak, 1 book of soul burn, 4 rings xD

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:48 pm

MySpaceBarBroke wrote:I never buy marines either, and rain of ice vs what harvestor?

You should try marines, 7-8 with auras can take down end game towers fully upgraded quite easy. They are countered by slayers but have nice armor and hp and can be fully healed by main vamp.

Rain of ice is useless vs good players but it's amazing vs noobs, it's the fastest way to destroy noob bases for maximum feed Smile make sure to have gauntlets of greed on your lich since it works with rain. By noob bases I mean the usual base full of low level towers, white goldmines and furbolgs or basic harvesters don't bother wasting time with that kind of base with your main vamp, get lich and cast rain of ice! it simply destroy everything in few seconds. You can easily get +5k with one rain if the base is well stuffed. high level of rain of ice can even take out green goldmines and fangs Razz

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:55 am

Tiny marines are really good.. I was going to post something on how much they can rip any base with the lich aura + upgrades.. In order to use them better I recommend sentry wards due to 4,000 range. If I'm screwing with the humans I will buy the tiny marines instead of kitty/tiger :p

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:49 am

I will address a couple posts here.

1.): Courier Conflcts
rqx, I see no problem with letting humans buy animal couriers. They can just have a bounty. Furthermore, couriers could have the same property that Shields of Immunity have: non-purchasable by humans.

2.):Rod Costs
There is a huge problem with being able to have teleportation at your earliest convenience. If it is free, there should be a onset similar to grave (meaning you cannot buy it immediately). However, that still doesn't resolve the need to prevent early game traps.

Rqx, Englocked is simply trying to say that all humans should know how to counter shade jumps. The fact of the matter is, that will not happen. Period. I have NEVER been in a game where 100% of humans prevented shade jumps. Furthermore, the more time that humans have before the vamp gets the rod, the more time the experienced players have to inform newer players of how to prevent shade jumps. I have, on several occasions, informed players of how to prevent shade jumps moments before a vamp attempted one on their bases.

Lastly, Englocked, I understand that you're compelled to defend yourself after rqx accused you of being a newbie, but your ladder record is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

3.): Research Center Recall
rqx, I am very fond of this idea. Early trapping is a SERIOUS problem with vamp speed; even the best players can be taken down with such misfortune. Please make a new thread about this addressing my original concerns about trapping. This does not seemed imbalanced as long as it has a relatively large cooldown.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:18 pm

Be realistic Gosusheep, how often do you see a human destroying his main wall according to another human's advices in order to counter teleport glitch ?
That doesn't happen. What happens on the other hand is that the human who missplaced his wall will fail and then will be more likely to listen to advices and eventually, in his next games he will place his wall properly.

You argument for rod to cost gold is like saying : Let's make vamps spawn at 5' mark so the "pros" humans have chance to teach the beginners how to play before vamp get there. That seems stupid, in my opinion, it is way more fun to learn by playing by yourself and making mistake than to make as the "pros" say.

You misunderstood me, I never said all humans should know how to counter wall jump, far from that lol, it would be unfair for vamps. Thanks god some humans never learn. Basically the more feeders there are, the more interesting the game gets. If all humans were "pros" the game balance would be destroyed, that's why I find these "pro games" pretty ridiculous.

About my ladder record I find it pretty revelant to rqx's previous post. It's not like all posts are revelant to the initial thread, the marines discussion has nothing to do with item courier either.

So, what would be so wrong about vamps being able to get rod of teleportation as they spawn ?(except your previous argument that, no offense, in my opinion, is very weak).

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:56 pm

Be realistic Gosusheep, how often do you see a human destroying his main wall according to another human's advices in order to counter teleport glitch ?
It's not just to defend against teleport glitch.. A lot of newbies don't know to block shade entry and I think that's what Gosu advises them to block off the leak.

You argument for rod to cost gold is like saying : Let's make vamps spawn at 5' mark so the "pros" humans have chance to teach the beginners how to play before vamp get there. That seems stupid, in my opinion, it is way more fun to learn by playing by yourself and making mistake than to make as the "pros" say.
It's the dual purpose of the rod that makes it imbalanced.. I am picturing a scenario where I am the main vamp and I take my rod/conc/boots at the beginning and in the first 12 seconds I buy my shade. I far sight my first target and I start to CL their workers or break into the base as my shade is on the other side of the map near or inside another potential feeding target. After I feed 200 gold from the first target I immediately teleport back to base to buy more items or I teleport on my shade to increase my feed. This feed would be dramatically more if my shade was seeded into someone's base. Even if the human is smart enough to block the shades, it doesn't always happen. The increased responsibility of humans to block everything in the first 1:30 of the game makes this a balancing issue.

You suggest the rod be free for the purpose of avoiding early-game trapping but it actually gives the vamp more leverage on the offensive, which isn't what the suggestion is aiming to provide. I have indicated a viable solution that is single purpose (base recall on vamp research center) where the vamp only needs to drop the research center to have an escape in the event of trapping.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:09 pm

GosuSheep wrote:1.): Courier Conflcts
rqx, I see no problem with letting humans buy animal couriers. They can just have a bounty. Furthermore, couriers could have the same property that Shields of Immunity have: non-purchasable by humans.
Doom armor'ed courier + buying graves/etc: I see this as a big annoyance for the vamp. I see it being as annoying as the 2.32 fel beast and the current meat carrier. It would also give the vamp more options to ring humans with the couriers.. If the main vamp loads up 3 couriers 6 rings each, this would be very deadly. A lot more possibilities are introduced with a courier, and I do not believe it is a good solution for trapping. The Lich acts as the (expensive) courier now and I think that is fine as is.


3.): Research Center Recall
rqx, I am very fond of this idea. Early trapping is a SERIOUS problem with vamp speed; even the best players can be taken down with such misfortune. Please make a new thread about this addressing my original concerns about trapping. This does not seemed imbalanced as long as it has a relatively large cooldown.
done http://vsportal.forumotion.com/suggestions-balancing-f8/addressing-trapping-base-recall-t128.htm

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:41 pm

"The increased responsibility of humans to block everything in the first 1:30 of the game makes this a balancing issue."

As I already stated, if you don't block everything in the first 1:30 of the game, you risk having shades in your base regardless the cost of rod.
And don't tell me that a human who is not able to block his base early will start hunting the hypothetical shade in his base. The only advantage I can see is that you will be able to teleport in his base earlier wich is not always a good thing because newbies are slow at building stuff so you would get less feed.

In my opinion the "imba" of rod of teleportation is already there, like Gosusheep said already, there are never a game where all humans are safe from wall jumping. And even for those who place their walls properly, there are still many bases that are not safe from a skilled rod of teleportation user (hopefully for humans these players are not many) Making rod cost nothing wouldn't change anything about that

I do know that making rod free would buff vamp slightly (I have no problem about that, on the contrary) but to say it would make game imbalanced.. Well let's say we disagree.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:38 am

Englocked

I don't understand how you believe that my scenario isn't true. I will tell you again:
GosuSheep wrote:I have, on several occasions, informed players of how to prevent shade jumps moments before a vamp attempted one on their bases.
You are stabbing in the dark claiming the unlikelihood that players will take advice willingly.

Also, your response to my rod argument is obscure. I stated that rod should remain the same cost, or if it is free, it should have some sort of onset. Never did I mention anything about giving the humans more time [u]than they already have now[/b].

Players learn to play multiplayer games by following others' examples. As it is said, "Do not reinvent the wheel." This game would be a LOT less developed if players did not learn from one another. I am certain that you, and every other person on these forums, did not learn every technique he knows by himself.

I don't understand where your mentioning of balance has any merit in this discussion. The balance of vamp speed is based significantly on the ability of the players, not just the map. If you honestly believe that a game with nothing but pros is a bad way to play vamp, you are clearly not on the same level as other players. There are advanced techniques to getting feed that 2 smart vamps can utilize that is nearly impossible to prevent. Yes, it is true that it is a different kind of gameplay when nothing but pros are involved, but it is more exciting and more entertaining. It certainly is NOT imbalanced.

I still maintain that your ladder record has no relevance in this matter. The warcraft3 engine's glitch about jumping units is not a familiar phenomenon to all professional ladder players. I have a highly skilled laddering friend that learned about jumping from Sheep Tag not too long ago. Furthermore, I addressed your inconsistency to this topic because I was directing my post at you. Just because I did not address other users' inconsistency does not give you the right to be off topic.

I will try to explain this again because you seem to not understand. The small amount of time that vamps need to farsight, go to a humans base, get feed, and return to the middle to get a rod is AMPLE time for another player to help his teammates out in countering shade jumps. Having rod with no cooldown and no gold cost will give the vamp a tremendous advantage. Having the ability to shade jump players that are not quick enough to prevent it would be a SERIOUS problem.


Last edited by GosuSheep on Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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