Item Courier

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:39 am

Englocked

I don't understand how you believe that my scenario isn't true. I will tell you again:
GosuSheep wrote:I have, on several occasions, informed players of how to prevent shade jumps moments before a vamp attempted one on their bases.
You are stabbing in the dark claiming the unlikelihood that players will take advice willingly.

Also, your response to my rod argument is obscure. I stated that rod should remain the same cost, or if it is free, it should have some sort of onset. Never did I mention anything about giving the humans more time than they already have now.

Players learn to play multiplayer games by following others' examples. As it is said, "Do not reinvent the wheel." This game would be a LOT less developed if players did not learn from one another. I am certain that you, and every other person on these forums, did not learn every technique he knows by himself.

I don't understand where your mentioning of balance has any merit in this discussion. The balance of vamp speed is based significantly on the ability of the players, not just the map. If you honestly believe that a game with nothing but pros is a bad way to play vamp, you are clearly not on the same level as other players. There are advanced techniques to getting feed that 2 smart vamps can utilize that is nearly impossible to prevent. Yes, it is true that it is a different kind of gameplay when nothing but pros are involved, but it is more exciting and more entertaining. It certainly is NOT imbalanced.

I still maintain that your ladder record has no relevance in this matter. The warcraft3 engine's glitch about jumping units is not a familiar phenomenon to all professional ladder players. I have a highly skilled laddering friend that learned about jumping from Sheep Tag not too long ago. Furthermore, I addressed your inconsistency to this topic because I was directing my post at you. Just because I did not address other users' inconsistency does not give you the right to be off topic.

I will try to explain this again because you seem to not understand. The small amount of time that vamps need to farsight, go to a humans base, get feed, and return to the middle to get a rod is AMPLE time for another player to help his teammates out in countering shade jumps. Having rod with no cooldown and no gold cost will give the vamp a tremendous advantage. Having the ability to shade jump players that are not quick enough to prevent it would be a SERIOUS problem.


Last edited by GosuSheep on Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Greg on Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:47 am

I have one thing to say... I have not seen a topic on this forum have posts this large... Congrats

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:02 am

Greg,

This is nothing, I've seen ESSAYS on the sheep tag forums. Kids from Princeton can really write-.-
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Greg on Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:18 am

Im talking about on VsPortal.Tk... I know about St forums... Im a member... Lolz...

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:48 pm

Gosusheep,
It's simple really. Versus good humans, vamps can't get feed, no matter how smart or how good they are. You disagree? Let's play a 2on1 game, me as human and you and a friend of yours as vamp. And we will see if you can get much feed.
And don't tell me it magically gets easier when there are more humans involved, multiple humans repairing are a pain in the ass for vamps. Hell multiple good humans could even trap the vamps in their own base before they even spawn.
How can you believe that a game full of pro humans can be interesting? Even with tons of feeders, it seems that humans can tech fast enough to win.. they can get ruby before vamp get remains, Diamond before vamp get kitty and so on.. (assuming vamp have enough feed to buy these)

I know no Vampirism game that is balanced and that is how it should be because if it was balanced, it simply wouldn't be played in public games since decent vamps would always win because of feeders. Let me say that again : those pro games are ridiculous because it would require the game to be balanced so vamps could win without feed wich obviously is not the case and shouldn't be.

You're right about one thing though, I'm clearly not on the same level as other players.

And I still maintain that my ladder record has perfect revelance to some of rqx's posts. Of course I didn't learn how rod works in my ladder games lol, I made those tests about it in a vampirism game.
My ladder record just mean that I have enough micro management and macro management skill to easily master any custom game if I play it enough.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:26 am

Englocked,

If you would really like to play, my friend winkle_puff and I will show you strategies that can beat a "pro" human 1v2. You will probably die in 4 minutes. Yes yes yes, you can repair, get 2 slayers with engineers and invul, get 4 healing towers really early, but I am confident that winkle_puff can overcome your defenses and lead to victory. You play on west? I will be on tonight; Wednesday 4/15/2009. Let's have at it.

Also, I STILL have no idea how you believe that your ladder record having an impact on your vamp speed playing has any relevance to this discussion. Yes it's true that your ladder history gives you a pre-disposition to excel at video games. So what? Rqx specifically used your potential lack of understand of shade jumping to demonstrate your skill levels.

rqx wrote:If you aren't a noob (I am having my doubts) you would know that shades are commonly used in conjunction with teleport to bypass a securing wall (aka wall jumping/hopping).

Rqx, is not saying that you are a "noob" because you do not understand micro. He is saying you are a "noob" for possibly not understanding shade jumping when it is commonly used in this game. Your correlation of the 2 concepts could lead to discussions like:

rqx: "You don't know how to cook eggs"
englocked: "Ha! Yes I do. I can cook spaghetti!"

Your ability to micro and macro has NOTHING to do with your ability to understand shade jumping. It is not relevant to this discussion, nor rqx's claim that you are inexperienced.

But in all seriousness. I would like to play you 1v2 (we always have the magnitude of players correspond to the team numbers). Message me, GosuSheep, or my friend Winkle_Puff and we will play.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:37 pm

GosuSheep wrote:Englocked,

If you would really like to play, my friend winkle_puff and I will show you strategies that can beat a "pro" human 1v2. You will probably die in 4 minutes. Yes yes yes, you can repair, get 2 slayers with engineers and invul, get 4 healing towers really early, but I am confident that winkle_puff can overcome your defenses and lead to victory. You play on west? I will be on tonight; Wednesday 4/15/2009. Let's have at it.

Hmm you pique my curiosity.

Also, I STILL have no idea how you believe that your ladder record having an impact on your vamp speed playing has any relevance to this discussion. Yes it's true that your ladder history gives you a pre-disposition to excel at video games. So what? Rqx specifically used your potential lack of understand of shade jumping to demonstrate your skill levels.


I don't think you understand, I never said my skill helped me to understand how rod of teleport works. But my skill sure helps me not to be a "noob" in any custom games I play a lot. Of course if by "noob", rqx meant "not knowing what wall jumping is" then there is not much revelance I agree, but the "noob word" is a wider concept than that you must agree. Rqx just did extrapolate my skill level on the guess that I didnt know what wall jumping is. Fact is that not only am I not a noob, but I know exactly how rod works. That's two differents things I agree.

rqx wrote:If you aren't a noob (I am having my doubts) you would know that shades are commonly used in conjunction with teleport to bypass a securing wall (aka wall jumping/hopping).

Rqx, is not saying that you are a "noob" because you do not understand micro. He is saying you are a "noob" for possibly not understanding shade jumping when it is commonly used in this game. Your correlation of the 2 concepts could lead to discussions like:


rqx: "You don't know how to cook eggs"
englocked: "Ha! Yes I do. I can cook spaghetti!"


Hmm, no it's more like

rqx: "You don't know how to cook eggs, thus you're a bad cook"
englocked: "No, I am a great cook AND I know how to cook eggs" (would be a shame for a great cook)

Your ability to micro and macro has NOTHING to do with your ability to understand shade jumping. It is not relevant to this discussion, nor rqx's claim that you are inexperienced.

It's revelant with me being not a noob. Saying someone is a noob is like saying that he is inexperienced, That's pretty much the definition of this word.

But in all seriousness. I would like to play you 1v2 (we always have the magnitude of players correspond to the team numbers). Message me, GosuSheep, or my friend Winkle_Puff and we will play.

I don't play on west but we can play on ggclient/garena, I'll be online today. My acc there is "ojune".

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Momo on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:09 pm

I thought Lich was removed, did it get back again?
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Re: Item Courier

Post by alvinchiew on Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:52 pm

yes it's back better try it out xD

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Momo on Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:52 pm

Okay, time for one ring on each finger of my right hand, and one in my left hand..
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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:13 am

Englocked,

In the connotation of rqx's use of "noob" he meant it for 1 purpose. Whether or not the word has other meanings is not our concern. For example, if I say, "dude, you are seriously gay." and you say "THAT'S NOT TRUE, I'M VERY SAD." then we have a problem.

Anyway, I'm sick of the conversation. I don't play on GGC simply because it's broken. I disconnects users, people have to tunnel, the delay is bad, the spikes are worse. I only play on bnet. If you want to play on bnet; cool. If you really NEED to play on ggc, I'll consider it.

Any other way to contact you other than these forums?
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:43 am

You seem to know what's on rqx's mind, I don't have these kind of skills so I better give up.

Well people play GGC precisely because the delay is much better than bnet, almost LAN-like. You may have problem with it, but don't say that it sux, it's awesome. I could try to play on west but the delay is gonna be awful since I live in Europe.

Use PM to contact me, I often check these forums.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:34 am

I understand the concept of virtual LAN. I was a beta tester of GGC. I also understand your concern that the delay and lag will be bad if we play on bnet as you are European (my experience is that cross-seas games play better on GGC for some reason). However, do not forget the limitation of Gayrena. It has FREQUENT packet losses, ip resynchronization, and a latencyLoop value of only 100. Bnet delay reducing tools such as VCK, DR, DC, and PLC allow you to change your latencyLoop value to virtually any number you'll need ideal for all users in the game. This means that we can spend a small game configuring the perfect delay then play another real game.

Furthermore, I'd like to reinstate: GGC Sucks. It is poorly programmed, non userfriendly, and is simply NOT well run with all computers. Bnet is better. Period.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:12 pm

GosuSheep wrote:I understand the concept of virtual LAN. I was a beta tester of GGC. I also understand your concern that the delay and lag will be bad if we play on bnet as you are European (my experience is that cross-seas games play better on GGC for some reason). However, do not forget the limitation of Gayrena. It has FREQUENT packet losses, ip resynchronization, and a latencyLoop value of only 100. Bnet delay reducing tools such as VCK, DR, DC, and PLC allow you to change your latencyLoop value to virtually any number you'll need ideal for all users in the game. This means that we can spend a small game configuring the perfect delay then play another real game.

Furthermore, I'd like to reinstate: GGC Sucks. It is poorly programmed, non userfriendly, and is simply NOT well run with all computers. Bnet is better. Period.
Not every country has populations who get originals for everything. Furthermore, it is also the matter of internet speed. Vampirism Players are mostly at West, and we Asians mostly have slow internet access in Malaysia.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:01 pm

GosuSheep wrote:Englocked,

If you would really like to play, my friend winkle_puff and I will show you strategies that can beat a "pro" human 1v2. You will probably die in 4 minutes. Yes yes yes, you can repair, get 2 slayers with engineers and invul, get 4 healing towers really early, but I am confident that winkle_puff can overcome your defenses and lead to victory. You play on west? I will be on tonight; Wednesday 4/15/2009. Let's have at it.
Even after our first game I still have no idea of what strategies you were talking about. What do you had in mind?

And about our second game, you didn't bother to explain humans how to wall-jump proof, even after one of them got wall jumped and was like "wtf, how he got in?" You didn't say anything. That's a bit contradictory with all that "help teammates countering wall-jump" thing.
I doubt you help your teammates as much as you seem to say. And I doubt even more that when you try to, they often listen and do what you tell them to, blindness.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by GosuSheep on Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:12 am

In my defense, the entire time I played that game, I was talking on vent, explaining to a friend on how to play. Also, I worked 12 hours that day. I was a little tired. When I'm awake and focused, I'm a bit more on my toes.

Btw, +1 for the Slayer Tavern assassin block.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:50 pm

Yeah, that Slayer tavern really threw me off, too. Was a nice feed though when I broke into his base early in the match ^^. Shouldn't have held back on killing him though, that was my biggest mistake...

On topic: No, I don't think item couriers would be smart. Part of the vampire's strategy is in his mobility. I have to make a choice when to abandon my first farming run (sometimes before I have razed a base completely) so I can get back to base to pick up my items. If i could just courier my items to my vamp out in a base I might never have to go back to base until I've taken out all bases on the map. The time I spend walking is time the humans need to build defenses.

That, of course, also makes me question the suggested recall function. Many humans have tried to trap me in early game, none of them with success. When I have CLd the first bunch of workers, I have the money for a vamp upgrade, which increases my dps by I think around 30ish % at this early point in the game. With this, emerald is no problem even with healing walls. Once I am in, i get a meat wagon which farms slayers. If someone really tried to lock me in, I'd just buy one or two additional upgrades and pulverize the walls. 100g a pop is nice feed at this point, too.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:16 pm

That, of course, also makes me question the suggested recall function. Many humans have tried to trap me in early game, none of them with success. When I have CLd the first bunch of workers, I have the money for a vamp upgrade, which increases my dps by I think around 30ish % at this early point in the game. With this, emerald is no problem even with healing walls. Once I am in, i get a meat wagon which farms slayers. If someone really tried to lock me in, I'd just buy one or two additional upgrades and pulverize the walls. 100g a pop is nice feed at this point, too.
The vamps who are noob enough to get trapped usually don't know about the damage upgrade or they walked into a perfect trap (no feed from CL). Also, the wall doesn't need to be an emerald if you didn't buy rod early.. It could be a higher level wall that cannot be broken with early game ups. I think a Ruby can be done at ~5 minutes. The ideal base recall is one that is a grace teleport if the vamp is just being messed with and he has no viable alternatives. Of course, it should have disadvantages and restrictions so it is only used as a last resort (ie. time casting equivalent of vamp walking to mid + discretionary penalty).

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:38 pm

I don't believe in making the game easier for noobs, human or vamp alike. If you get trapped, you clearly need to learn to play properly. All the more reason to make this forum gain a lot more facetime in the community. In the long run, a noob vamp who gets himself into that kind of situation will be facing other insurmountable threats, like end game towers, spiked wall, etc. I don't think it prudent to let him run from one problem just to draw the game out 10 minutes longer.

Also, these topics should have remained one thread, bc they clearly belong together...

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:59 pm

I fully disagree with you on this. Any pro can make mistake of not getting a rod in the first 5 minutes of the game. Your hypothetical feed is not going to help if a human researches hp upgrades as you chain the workers and you get trapped with nothing. Far sight and damage upgrades aren't going to help you quash all traps if you wander far into a base; a human can fortify a strong wall by the time you walk back to the entrance of some bases and instant-build a ruby around 5 minutes. This base recall will not drag the game out longer in early games where the humans just don't have enough firepower to finish the vamp off after a successful trap.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:02 pm

Also an item courier can be considered a separate suggestion since it will likely be used for multiple purposes, so two different threads is ok. The community is very small so I don't see the problem of semi-overlapping threads.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:25 pm

I wish I had a screenie, but let's just get some bearings on this to get on the same page here. This is one of my recent replays (gold values always my current gold unless otherwise stated):

0:58 Vamp spawns, drops house, gets boots, conc
1:13 FS east, see 4 bases (lucky me)
1:21 CL lvl 2 -> 91g (attacking yellow)
1:28 attacking front wall, 1+1emmy, 3 towers
1:39 CL lvl 2 -> 130g (detoed some)
1:52 first emmy down -> 230g, wall of health up, 2 humans repairing -> I leave for next base (didnt want the hassle, but couldve taken down next emmy w upgrade easily, like to save up for meat wagon though, bc this will earn money and time in the long run)
2:10 CL lvl ? -> 301g (while leaving yellow) (not sure if I upgraded CL or not at this point, depends on whether he upgraded Worker HP)
2:15 FS, CL lvl ? (blue)
2:25 Stomp lvl 4, CL lvl ? -> 207g + meat wagon, entering unwalled base (still blue) (total gold here: ~460g)
2:45 Stomp on workers, 2 tents 3 houses, tavern -> 301g + upgrade, FS again, slayer dies to meat wagon
3:22 Orange base, through 2 topaz, 1 emmy, bunch of towers, stomp on workers -> 560g + urn, tp, pulse
3:45 yellow cuts tree, another slayer dies to meat wagon
4:45 hurried back mid due to action going on, nuked some slayers in the process, started moving shades...
5:30 still no wall stronger than emerald

I'd say this was a pretty average match. More often than not I actually break into the first base I attack; tents and walls are delicious. You can also plainly see I have farmed more than 300g @ 2 mins, before I even enter the first base, CL and emerald walls ftw. In a pinch, this allows me to upgrade my dmg by roughly 1K, destroying emmys becomes a cakewalk regardless of WoH or humans repairing it. At this point, NO human has gold, and I specifically spend money early on meat wagon and pulse staff to stop them from gaining it as long as possible.

Judging from this, I fail to see how anyone could have locked me in anywhere. A ruby @ 5 sounds ludicrous, I just checked with a replay of me as human:

1:08 Worker Motiviation 1
1:09 Slayer
1:20 Worker Motivation 2
3:16 8G
4:00 Furbies
5:00 35 GMs, Chryso
8:30 ruby ( and I was the 1st there, too)

By the time I as a human had chryso and furbies, I had gained 1k+ as a vamp. Up until that point I could also upgrade CL to counter HP upgrades if necessary, but I usually go the stomp route bc it gains range and dmg at a great rate, allowing me to kill workers by stomp/chain combo. This ofc also depends on who you attack when. Bases close together can be harder to take down through walls, but fairly easily farmed from the outside.

To reiterate: If you're not properly farmed at the 8:30 mark, and wander into a trap w/o rod, which is really the only way to get trapped behind a ruby wall, then you are a noob.

EDIT: Please use edit instead of double posting.

The main point of the courier seems to be to get a rod to the vamp who gets trapped, i.e. a noob. I don't mean to belittle people who try the game out for the first time (I do when it happens in my "PRO ONLY" labeled games though), but I still believe that people should become smarter, not the game easier.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:46 am

Englocked can ruby up at 5:30 as demonstrated with his replay @ http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=121751

I don't see why he can't opt for a lesser wall like a garnet wall before then to trap some vamp easily

I am sure it took you many games to know to buy urn, tp and pulse first. These are the items I always pick up first, but I play this game too much. The same noobs you are feeding off of do not buy those first and you end up remaking because they're stupid to break out of a trap.

If I was playing against myself or a player at my level, I know I am not trap immune. It all depends how my feed turns out. Your first far sight does not always reveal a good target to feed as you should know. That's already enough time for the humans to prepare a trap.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:29 am

If you walk into a base without rod, you can get trapped. And that could happen to any vamp player since there are situations were the only way to get feed for rod is to get into someone's base e.g a feeder that didn't bother to build a wall and is pumping his harvesters out of chain range.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:47 am

rqx wrote: Englocked can ruby up at 5:30 as demonstrated with his replay @ http://tft.replayers.com/index.php?action=view&id=121751


Ok that replay sucked. First of all, the vamp was clearly clueless, didn't even buy shield until over 30 mins into the game, no rod *at all* and made some more very bad decisions along the way. If played properly, he'd have been in englocked's base before the 5 minute mark - I know I have, those taverns are great feed, saves me a lot of running around the map. This is extremely risky and not practical at all, he even has a sphere spot open at least up to the 6th minute. Any good vamp wouldve gone and put a shade at his front door to knock through as soon as he has demonics, maybe even before that. Englocked wouldnt have the time - even if he does have an impressive amount of ressources - to replace the retaining wall with a ruby. Not even trained a slayer... I'm sorry, but this proves nothing. I know his strategy may work the first time (i know it did vs me bc I let him rebuild there after razing him, didnt even put in a shade... after I lost a lot of gold to my minis, i didnt get farmed up enough to take his gold wall), but this is not comparable to proper game play. He willfully risks feeding the vampire massively and banks on not getting attacked.

rqx wrote:I don't see why he can't opt for a lesser wall like a garnet wall before then to trap some vamp easily.

I am sure it took you many games to know to buy urn, tp and pulse first. These are the items I always pick up first, but I play this game too much. The same noobs you are feeding off of do not buy those first and you end up remaking because they're stupid to break out of a trap.


Like I said, I don't condone giving them the opportunity (unless they don't know about the courier) to escape this pickle just to run into my end game towers 20 mins later and die in one shot. They won't have learned anything. Better let them get trapped, ridiculed and told to learn to play.

rqx wrote:If I was playing against myself or a player at my level, I know I am not trap immune. It all depends how my feed turns out. Your first far sight does not always reveal a good target to feed as you should know. That's already enough time for the humans to prepare a trap.

I have never seen a good vamp get trapped, period. And I do the Q&A game before every match to find out if the vamp at least has some bearings on prices in order to gauge how well he can fare against me.

Englocked wrote:If you walk into a base without rod, you can get trapped. And that could happen to any vamp player since there are situations were the only way to get feed for rod is to get into someone's base e.g a feeder that didn't bother to build a wall and is pumping his harvesters out of chain range.


The question I've been asking isn't whether it can happen, but when and why. Sure, a noob vamp can walk stark naked into a tight spot at minute ten (maybe because he had no clue he could farsight) and get locked in. That same vamp can walk past a bunch of end game towers at minute 20 with 24 armor (cp. the replay provided by rqx) and die instantly. Does that mean we should start a motion for a free, automatic +800 armor upgrade, too? I'm thinking no.

Looking at the timelines I have provided I seriously can't find a spot where any human would have been able to trap me. Granted, I've become pretty good as a vamp, but only bc I read up on this stuff and checked out replays before trying it myself. This is what I'm suggesting. Don't make the game easier, make the players better.

Silversong

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Re: Item Courier

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