Item Courier

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:37 am

The point of the replay is to show a human's potential gold mining efficiency. With the raw amount of gold Englocked is able to get in the early game, he could easily set up comets/rubies in his base to kill an unarmored vamp if they try to break in. If we play 10, 20 games with each other. I guarantee you I will successfully trap 90-95% of the vampires. It is frustrating to not have a solution for this and remaking the game isn't going to make normal players get "smarter", it just makes players cry more.

You can't expect to be told to "learn how to play" when you don't even offer any suggestion to countering a trap and just calling them noobs. You have to counter it with good timing and discretionary upgrades to get out of a trap and this is not easy to pick up game to game. If you go without a rod late game, you are basically screwed and the game is over. Now, you expect 90-95% of the players to magically get better and play again instead of changing something in the system that could assist in the learning process in the same game. The goal of changing systems in the game is to expand the playerbase and retain new and existing players; I don't think you have considered this to present a solid opposition against the base recall suggestion.

after I lost a lot of gold to my minis, i didnt get farmed up enough to take his gold wall), but this is not comparable to proper game play. He willfully risks feeding the vampire massively and banks on not getting attacked.
Sounds like you had your chance against him, and being the pro you are you couldn't feed "massively" enough to come back and break him again. Seems like a big flaw in your analysis. "Learn to play"?

Like I said, I don't condone giving them the opportunity (unless they don't know about the courier) to escape this pickle just to run into my end game towers 20 mins later and die in one shot. They won't have learned anything. Better let them get trapped, ridiculed and told to learn to play.
That's the point of a base recall. If you trap them and don't build enough firepower at that time to end the game and kill them, the game basically ends as the vamp forfeits. Vamp could learn more if he gets the hell out of there and looks at the possibilities at that point. Players would get better if they had the opportunity to think of a more efficient escape plan and focus on the late game stuff.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:38 pm

rqx wrote:The point of the replay is to show a human's potential gold mining efficiency. With the raw amount of gold Englocked is able to get in the early game, he could easily set up comets/rubies in his base to kill an unarmored vamp if they try to break in. If we play 10, 20 games with each other. I guarantee you I will successfully trap 90-95% of the vampires. It is frustrating to not have a solution for this and remaking the game isn't going to make normal players get "smarter", it just makes players cry more.

He does *not* mine gold efficiently, because he neglects building base defenses. The vamp can break into his base with ease at any time up to the point where he builds onyx and vamp gets kitty. He might just as well build no defenses at all, saves even more wood to pump into mines. That's what I think about that. Furthermore, you still portray 90-95% percent of vamps as noobs, while my credo the whole time has been to *not* let those guys play vamp. There is a reason I became pro human before I became pro vamp.

rqx wrote:The goal of changing systems in the game is to expand the playerbase and retain new and existing players; I don't think you have considered this to present a solid opposition against the base recall suggestion.

Like I said, we might as well have an automatic armor upgrade at like 10 minutes in. The arguments would be *exactly* the same, since dieing to a comet in mid game is a frustrating experience, too. Take out all the frustration to make the map appeal to everyone, right?

rqx wrote:Sounds like you had your chance against him, and being the pro you are you couldn't feed "massively" enough to come back and break him again. Seems like a big flaw in your analysis. "Learn to play"?

Actually, part of my strategy involves taking out opponents descending by apparent player strength, i.e. with the cloak I will go for the guy with the strongest wall first etc. Granted, this may well be regarded as part of a strategy by Englocked (in fact, I delay wall upgrades as well so I can go from chryso straight to ruby; I also build mines off-site in order not to feed should the vamp manage a break-in), but with his measly emerald, no towers and no slayer i just didn't consider him much of a threat at that point. I also mistook his massive taverns for something a noob would accidently do, since despite denying and deto I earned about twice as much razing his base than I would in a normal base. I also spared his human on several occcasion while in his base, precisely bc I considered him a noob to feed me later on.

His is a strategy of deception, not power, and will absolutely not work against me a second time. He was lucky not to be first, those guys I sometimes kill to get a quick 300g. Although creating minis is always a threat in and of its own, especially in early game. In this one, they cost me more than 5 grand, not including potential feed from humans they killed and Xp...

EDIT: Just had a look at the replay again, he actually was the first base I went into. Got Ruby at 7, when he rebuilt in exactly the same way, even with the same shade vulnerability. On my side were 2 vamps and not 1, not 2, no, 5 fracking minis. Other vamp died to a single lvl 3 super bc he had no armor...

rqx wrote:Players would get better if they had the opportunity to think of a more efficient escape plan and focus on the late game stuff.

Let me ask you this then: Did you get better by playing vamp and losing countless times? Did you get trapped and felt the game was unfair for allowing this to happen? Die to a comet and cursed the day comets became part of the map? Killed in the slayer pool while trying to farm?

Or did you start out as human, watched the vamp do his thing while at the same time learning about countermeasures from other players or trial-and-error? Then, when you felt confident that you had mastered being human, did you ask to play as vamp, ironed out some kinks and became pretty good fairly quickly?

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:18 pm

Silversong wrote:
Actually, part of my strategy involves taking out opponents descending by apparent player strength, i.e. with the cloak I will go for the guy with the strongest wall first etc. Granted, this may well be regarded as part of a strategy by Englocked (in fact, I delay wall upgrades as well so I can go from chryso straight to ruby; I also build mines off-site in order not to feed should the vamp manage a break-in), but with his measly emerald, no towers and no slayer i just didn't consider him much of a threat at that point. I also mistook his massive taverns for something a noob would accidently do, since despite denying and deto I earned about twice as much razing his base than I would in a normal base. I also spared his human on several occcasion while in his base, precisely bc I considered him a noob to feed me later on.

His is a strategy of deception, not power, and will absolutely not work against me a second time. He was lucky not to be first, those guys I sometimes kill to get a quick 300g. Although creating minis is always a threat in and of its own, especially in early game. In this one, they cost me more than 5 grand, not including potential feed from humans they killed and Xp...

You don't know yet if it wouldn't work a second time. If we play more games, you will see that my "farming strategy" is not as vulnerable as you think it is :p

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:16 pm

Let me ask you this then: Did you get better by playing vamp and losing countless times? Did you get trapped and felt the game was unfair for allowing this to happen? Die to a comet and cursed the day comets became part of the map? Killed in the slayer pool while trying to farm?

Or did you start out as human, watched the vamp do his thing while at the same time learning about countermeasures from other players or trial-and-error? Then, when you felt confident that you had mastered being human, did you ask to play as vamp, ironed out some kinks and became pretty good fairly quickly?
It's probably been 200 games of vamp speed over many versions since early 2.xx's so I can't tell you exactly how I learned. I just don't think having a vamp trapped 2 minutes in says much about game mechanics. You just can't assume you can get 300g feed right away to upgrade your vampiric power. Even prior to 2.45 or earlier the vampiric power upgrade was not an effective counter to the trapping. If the humans can kill the vamp in the trap, it's a different story. As a regular host of this game I see vampires getting shields +800 early but no rod to back it up. The vamp sits trapped in a base for more than 2 minutes before anyone can produce enough firepower to finish the vamp or the vamp just leaves.

I also have no control over the skill level of the vamp, because no matter how good the vamps say they are, I don't really know until the game starts. To disallow someone that wants to play vamp is really lame. If my spider senses tingle and I think the guy is a noob, I advise that they go human or take a partner before the game starts. Not everyone has to learn the same way as you, and you make it sound like being a vamp is a privilege. It's not. I haven't met anyone who has to beg and "ask to play as vamp" after "mastering being human".

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Re: Item Courier

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:22 pm

Englocked wrote:
Silversong wrote:
Actually, part of my strategy involves taking out opponents descending by apparent player strength, i.e. with the cloak I will go for the guy with the strongest wall first etc. Granted, this may well be regarded as part of a strategy by Englocked (in fact, I delay wall upgrades as well so I can go from chryso straight to ruby; I also build mines off-site in order not to feed should the vamp manage a break-in), but with his measly emerald, no towers and no slayer i just didn't consider him much of a threat at that point. I also mistook his massive taverns for something a noob would accidently do, since despite denying and deto I earned about twice as much razing his base than I would in a normal base. I also spared his human on several occcasion while in his base, precisely bc I considered him a noob to feed me later on.

His is a strategy of deception, not power, and will absolutely not work against me a second time. He was lucky not to be first, those guys I sometimes kill to get a quick 300g. Although creating minis is always a threat in and of its own, especially in early game. In this one, they cost me more than 5 grand, not including potential feed from humans they killed and Xp...

You don't know yet if it wouldn't work a second time. If we play more games, you will see that my "farming strategy" is not as vulnerable as you think it is :p
I would have to agree with Englocked since he mostly use anti-assassin when playing against advance or professional level players.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:28 pm

Englocked wrote:
Silversong wrote:
His is a strategy of deception, not power, and will absolutely not work against me a second time. He was lucky not to be first, those guys I sometimes kill to get a quick 300g. Although creating minis is always a threat in and of its own, especially in early game. In this one, they cost me more than 5 grand, not including potential feed from humans they killed and Xp...

You don't know yet if it wouldn't work a second time. If we play more games, you will see that my "farming strategy" is not as vulnerable as you think it is :p

That's as maybe, you can't argue that you are taking great risks in early to become imba in late. Thanks to your generous - however involuntary - donation, I had an economic leg up on your teammates, and shades in your general area before you had your wall back up and any means of detection, as well as the cash for a sphere back into your base. I always applaud new strategies, and in the end you bested me through economic domination. I still maintain though, that your approach should not be considered an example of how to do it right, seeing as how it requires a great amount of skill and - imho - luck to pull off.

I am not by any means the end-all-be-all of vamp players out there, I actually play as vamp so much because I still feel there is a challenge where as human there really is none any more. But I still don't believe this strategy would work a second time on me, esp. since knowing you I will of course concentrate on hurting you as much as I can now ^^

For anybody curious, you may request the replay of the match in question. I'm not proud of my desperation in late game, but I learned a lesson about 2 vamps and odd strategies...

rqx wrote:I also have no control over the skill level of the vamp, because no matter how good the vamps say they are, I don't really know until the game starts. To disallow someone that wants to play vamp is really lame. If my spider senses tingle and I think the guy is a noob, I advise that they go human or take a partner before the game starts. Not everyone has to learn the same way as you, and you make it sound like being a vamp is a privilege. It's not. I haven't met anyone who has to beg and "ask to play as vamp" after "mastering being human".

Again, we disagree. While I don't think "privilege" is the right word to describe the vamp position, consider this: A noob human may not be able to build up proper defenses before attacked by the vampire. The vamp feeds on and maybe even kills the human, the game goes on. A noob vamp on the other may take 3 minutes just to find the first base, and once there, face an insurmountable obstacle in the wall. While he may not die immediately, he will do so sooner or later, and in a most dissatisfying way. A noob human ruins the game for nobody. A noob vamp ruins it for everybody.

That's why in my hosted games I actually take great care in selecting the right people to become vamps. This may not be ultimately possible, but people who don't at least have some prices memorised usually dont make good vamps.

I absolutely believe that in order to become a good vamp, you should first learn to play human properly, because learning your way around as human doesen't interfere with the game in the way it does as vampire.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Englocked on Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:16 pm

Let's play, I'm online on "krikrijna".

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Re: Item Courier

Post by rqx on Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:36 pm

Again, we disagree.
Agreed. I don't think I can agree with you on anything here.

A base recall function shouldn't change your playing style at all if you know what you're doing.

I maintain that 90% of the vamps (including humans) are noobs. Even if I quiz vamps and get all anal, no one is motivated to put up a fight as vamp in my games so I'd rather not waste my time picking and betting. It's not a job interview. If I want a game that the vamp can get something done, I will vamp.

I also maintain that it is a flaw in the game mechanics if a main vamp can get easily trapped and it should be addressed. You obviously have unrealistic expectations when it comes to vamp and it's not helping to further this map's development. SaMmM doesn't seem like he's against the idea so we will see what happens in subsequent updates.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:47 pm

Englocked wrote:Let's play, I'm online on "krikrijna".

Well he did prove to me that his strategy is less vulnerable than I'd expected. Good job on that.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by Silversong on Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:55 pm

rqx wrote:
Again, we disagree.
Agreed. I don't think I can agree with you on anything here.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on that Very Happy . We can agree on a lot of things. This is just one particular point that divides us. I am of the opinion that we should not make it easier for vamps bc I expect them to learn how to play before they go and ruin games. I know we did.

Maybe a -help option would be in order, whereby you get triggered hints like "Don't forget boots and concoction, they're free" or "Have you used Far Sight yet?".

Sorry for double post btw.

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Re: Item Courier

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:27 pm

Silversong wrote:Sorry for double post btw.
You could edit the 1st one... and since deletion in this topic has a bug, there is nothing I can do but to advice to use Edit more often.
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Re: Item Courier

Post by mysticdude42 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:22 pm

why not make that "Slow Shade" the one weaker than the other (what's that shade for anyway) to be your courier? and doesnt the place you choose ur vamp skin allow you to let u teleport back there at the game timer of 00:55:00?
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Re: Item Courier

Post by mysticdude42 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:53 pm

oh and i said shade cuz if those humans would already be at the part of owning to kill u and trap u it just goes easier to be killed using lich as the courier so use a shade (NOT EVEN WALL OF SEEING OR FAR SIGHT COULD DETECT THIS SHADE) as the courier altho it may walk slow
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Re: Item Courier

Post by Greg on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:05 am

Please try not to post on old topics that are far gone

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Re: Item Courier

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