Counter the uncounterable

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Counter the uncounterable

Post by GosuSheep on Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:13 am

There is at least 1 situation in which there is no way for the vamp to do anything, and he can either die or leave. Because of this, it would be nice to add some items, change the terrain, etc.

If a human goes to the teleportation areas and blocks off the waygate with goldmines, then surrounds the entire base with stacked goldmines, then blocks off harvesters with 3 layers of goldmines, then blocks off main human with 6 lvl3 super comet towers, it's checkmate. The vamp cannot teleport into the area through the waygate, the vamp cannot v3x the human, and the vamp cannot v3/treecutter/sphere in because of the stacked goldmines. (All of these goldmines are green btw). The only POSSIBLE move (assuming that the human does not let the vamp use v3 twice-.-) is to v3 a goldmine that will let an assassin kill harvesters. Even then, nothing can be done...

What I propose is this:

1.) Remove those damn teleportation areas. They're rigged; plain and simple.
2.) Add a better survival item. The 5000$ mask doesn't cut it anymore. There should be a 7500-10000$ cost item that adds a LOT of health and a LOT of armor. I personally cannot do testing because I don't have access to the map, but I'm sure you (SaMmM) can test out what it takes to make the wolf survive 6-10 super comets for at least 10-30 seconds longer.
3.) Increase the periodic income amounts... If you're like me, you can have your entire base surrounded with green goldmines, 6 super comets, 6 healing towers, multiple top-tier walls, max diamond-mines, and 10k gold left over all by 30 minutes. Why the hell do vamps only get 1000 gold at this point?
4.) More to brain-storm on.

Also, I'm sure you all have noticed that it is impossible to play an in-house game of vamp speed. If all the humans know what they're doing, it's a checkmate for the vamps as they cannot get any feed. I think it might be good to change this. It will take an extremely large amount of modification, but it is definitely possible. SaMmM, if you're interested and are committed to this project, reply here and I'll let you know a good place to start.
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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by Greg on Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:33 am

I agree with you Guso for most of this... The Kitty's and Tiger's are so strong though they are hard to compete with when they have 2... Usually when you host a game you have atleast 1 noob that keeps getting killed and feeds a lot... If the vamp is smart enough he will put a shade in the base early on and tele in later when he has a lot of stuff... The health and armor is fine... Just get a mask and a shield... And when human has spike just get immunity shield to not have any damage done to you... Or the vamp can buy the 15 second immunity potion that is not to much, cant remember if it is still in there... 1000 gold is fine at the 30 minute mark... Usually people will feed the vamp, the noobs are good feed, i have not had that many games where there are no feeding noobs... If you want the vamp to have a chance just give them a little feed... Be careful though because feed to much and they will pwn...

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by rqx on Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:43 am

my 2c
3.) Increase the periodic income amounts... If you're like me, you can have your entire base surrounded with green goldmines, 6 super comets, 6 healing towers, multiple top-tier walls, max diamond-mines, and 10k gold left over all by 30 minutes. Why the hell do vamps only get 1000 gold at this point?
I agree to some extent that there should be some changes made.. Might I suggest the periodic gold gratuities should be determined by the amount of goldmines on the map on a variable basis (calculated using goldmines).. Someone good with math would have to figure out a good balance.. Hell I don't even know if it's possible..

for example..
every 1 basic mine = 1g per 30s for human, .: perhaps 5g per mine bonus (every 5 minutes) on top to vamps income
every 1 super mine = ~10g per mine bonus
every 1 ultra mine = ~20g bonus
every 1 elite mine = ~40g bonus
every 1 diamond mine = ~80g bonus

2.) Add a better survival item. The 5000$ mask doesn't cut it anymore. There should be a 7500-10000$ cost item that adds a LOT of health and a LOT of armor. I personally cannot do testing because I don't have access to the map, but I'm sure you (SaMmM) can test out what it takes to make the wolf survive 6-10 super comets for at least 10-30 seconds longer.
Don't underestimate the power of one item slot.. this could tip the balance a little too much. If the vamp lets the human become so strong to have perfect missile defense (6x level 3 supers), they pretty much lost the game. There are great in-game mechanics that makes the vamp "just work" in speed. Free graves, pulse staff, burst gem, open slayer pool, assassin, gold yields on everything.. the feed is in everything. I have been feeding vampire noobs to break my defense to test the end game balancing.. Someone loaded on Triple tigers, 1-2 masks and immunity shield can make quick work of any d. Anyways, someone has to lose. This map isn't supposed to have vamp win every possible scenario

1.) Remove those damn teleportation areas. They're rigged; plain and simple.
This is going to be fixed/patched next version.. Vamp is going to have to be sleeping if they can't soul burn and v3x before missile defense anyways.

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by rqx on Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:51 am

oops missed last half your post..
Also, I'm sure you all have noticed that it is impossible to play an in-house game of vamp speed. If all the humans know what they're doing, it's a checkmate for the vamps as they cannot get any feed. I think it might be good to change this. It will take an extremely large amount of modification, but it is definitely possible. SaMmM, if you're interested and are committed to this project, reply here and I'll let you know a good place to start..
GosuSheep
not that I'm SaMmM or anything but I think he's pretty damn committed and has access to the best resources out there. I don't think "extremely large" mods are necessary as I have never ended a game in stalemate. Someone has to and will die. It might be unfortunate that the vamp dies due to malnutrition but that's the nature of the beast that is Vampirism.

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by Greg on Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:18 pm

1.) Remove those damn teleportation areas. They're rigged; plain and simple.
This is going to be fixed/patched next version.. Vamp is going to have to be sleeping if they can't soul burn and v3x before missile defense anyways.[/quote]

And how do you know this?

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by rqx on Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:32 pm

Maybe you should check the bugs report forum every once in awhile. Don't you have to read things as a moderator?

http://vsportal.forumotion.com/bugs-report-f3/teleportal-bug-pls-fix-t58.htm
http://vsportal.forumotion.com/bugs-report-f3/about-teleport-bases-t53.htm

It's just a hunch that it will be fixed next version. It could be fixed in later versions as well.

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by Greg on Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:13 pm

Only says noted... Doesn't mean it will be fixed next version...

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by rqx on Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:31 pm

Greg, thanks for being so smart Rolling Eyes also good work hijacking this guys thread

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by SaMmM on Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:12 pm

GosuSheep wrote:There is at least 1 situation in which there is no way for the vamp to do anything, and he can either die or leave. Because of this, it would be nice to add some items, change the terrain, etc.

If a human goes to the teleportation areas and blocks off the waygate with goldmines, then surrounds the entire base with stacked goldmines, then blocks off harvesters with 3 layers of goldmines, then blocks off main human with 6 lvl3 super comet towers, it's checkmate. The vamp cannot teleport into the area through the waygate, the vamp cannot v3x the human, and the vamp cannot v3/treecutter/sphere in because of the stacked goldmines. (All of these goldmines are green btw). The only POSSIBLE move (assuming that the human does not let the vamp use v3 twice-.-) is to v3 a goldmine that will let an assassin kill harvesters. Even then, nothing can be done...

What I propose is this:

1.) Remove those damn teleportation areas. They're rigged; plain and simple.
2.) Add a better survival item. The 5000$ mask doesn't cut it anymore. There should be a 7500-10000$ cost item that adds a LOT of health and a LOT of armor. I personally cannot do testing because I don't have access to the map, but I'm sure you (SaMmM) can test out what it takes to make the wolf survive 6-10 super comets for at least 10-30 seconds longer.
3.) Increase the periodic income amounts... If you're like me, you can have your entire base surrounded with green goldmines, 6 super comets, 6 healing towers, multiple top-tier walls, max diamond-mines, and 10k gold left over all by 30 minutes. Why the hell do vamps only get 1000 gold at this point?
4.) More to brain-storm on.

Also, I'm sure you all have noticed that it is impossible to play an in-house game of vamp speed. If all the humans know what they're doing, it's a checkmate for the vamps as they cannot get any feed. I think it might be good to change this. It will take an extremely large amount of modification, but it is definitely possible. SaMmM, if you're interested and are committed to this project, reply here and I'll let you know a good place to start.

Actually, version 2.44 is only like the 4th version released so far.
Version 2.33 to 2.40 was all focused on fixing bugs and the entirely new script.
Version 2.32 and below was handled by DumbAssKing.
Making a vampirism map script from scratch is not easy work.
So as you see, the situation here is that its only the 4th version so far, many things are yet to be implemented.

I also had been working on a new terrain for vampirism speed, but it is yet to be disclosed.

1. Remove the waygate areas? No, because:
Building on red tile area is already fixed and is going to be release in the next version.

2. If vampires survives for 10-30s seconds under 6-10 endgame comet towers, they can entirely destroy maximum walled bases.
A maximum upgraded Tank wall can be destroyed in a few seconds by a attacker wielding a 2 kitty claw or a heart of blood.
If vampires have high survival, Humans will have no chance at winning, unless they have 200k+ gold, considering their only hope will be The-End tower.
The concept is when humans get many end game comet towers, the vampire is considered 50-70% defeated (Varies on the Player). The vampires may still turn the game around by using v3x missiles, tiny marines etc.

However, in the coming version, vampires can survive better when facing end game towers.
A research will be needed for humans to unlock the automatic homing missiles.
In the current version 2.44, Automatic homing missiles is an ability for end game towers, it makes the tower's attack hits 100% of the time and ignore evasion.
In the coming version 2.45, Automatic homing missiles will be an expensive upgrade that needs to be researched by the human.
Meaning Vampires will be able to have 50% evasion (from the Mask) against end game towers until the human gets the homing missile research that is very expensive.
Very Happy I'm already letting out too much info about the coming version! Very Happy

3. Vamps gets gold from killing, they don't entirely depend on gold interval like humans. There is also the Urn of Dracula.


I will not be using grimorie because i don't want to reinstall my wc3, btw Version Rollback does not work for world editor.
In the coming version 2.45, i already resolved 1 cause of fatal and *hopefully* resolved the cause of control lost.


Also, I'm sure you all have noticed that it is impossible to play an in-house game of vamp speed. If all the humans know what they're doing, it's a checkmate for the vamps as they cannot get any feed.

I assumed that the humans are only playing against one ancient vampire.
Try a game against two of them that knows what they're doing. Very Happy

By the way, in the coming version 2.45, i really pumped up the research time of workers hitpoints, so... Humans will really need to KNOW what they are doing and be fast to research, or they are plain feed...

By the way, i really appreciated your feedback and suggestions.
The 7500-10000$ cost item will be considered.
Thank You for your time.

SaMmM
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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:36 pm

Agreed with SaMmM. Until now, I can say I basically mastered how to use my money in the most efficient way using a vampire and thus, makes me very difficult to win unless if the match has less than 4 active players(players with base). In Garena, there are some situation where once a player's wall is almost down, they deny the entire base, then deny the wall which is practically cheating and that is the only way there is to win me.
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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by Greg on Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:18 pm

Guso plays with 2 vamps... I play with him occasionally.

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Re: Counter the uncounterable

Post by NightWish. on Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:36 am

If you can't win just die oO.
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