PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:10 pm

No one is arguing it should be removed or not, I and OP just want it nerfed so it does not work on allied structures. It wouldn't horribly unbalance the game, even removing it completely wouldn't.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:07 am

Then noob saving won't work >.> You will just help the vampires out TREMENDOUSLY if they can't help each other. When I choose to go human, I help someone out if they are almost dead, saves the game half of the time. It is like the one lifeline that humans have if all else is lost.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:24 pm

Sure that would help vampires, it's the point. It's still very possible to win as human without "noob saving".

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:52 pm

Now, how do you counter claw of dreadlord early game? Two walls? Great, it slows you down ;p

I really do NOT think this should be removed, it would mess up too many strategies and tactics, YES it is mean when the humans can do it to their base, but there are ways around it, something is rigged if it is WAAAY to out of hand to deal with and it is simple to coordinate, if you are in a public game, not everyone is going to bother listening to other people, in public games, people are generally for themselves. Only elitists at this game would bother doing such a thing (or people with a nice elitist attitude) and those are rare to come by >.>

If this was the standard on how games were played, then sure I would see a problem for adjusting, but it isn't, it isn't done often enough for this to happen.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:26 pm

Clearly building a second wall as human to counter claw of dreadlord early game is such a pain in the ass in comparison to being unable to break any wall as vampire, I mean you're going to build CC at 6:30 instead of 6:15 Shocked Wait a minut! I never suggested to completely remove the slayer invul in the first place so why are you bringing this up anyway?
One thing I do know though is that one good human can slow down the vamp significantly early game using builder, engineers and slayer invul on "noobs bases", let alone 4-5 Rolling Eyes

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:47 am

So now what if you play like clue or gr3g, without a slayer. . . no allies to help you there. (Whenever I choose to play like them as human, I always ask to make sure someone can cover for me. . .) That would kill half of that strategy too. . . .

Plus the engineer can still repair other human walls, two level 1 engineers can easily counter any starting vamp. . . .

I still don't think that this should be removed, if you can show my SUBSTANTIAL evidence that this is required, then I might change my mind, but saying this has happened a couple times when this has been a part of the game since the beginning is not good enough for me >.> (Yes I know I am being stubborn. . . ) Very Happy

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:41 am

Slayer's invul has no counter early in the game unlike engineers. What kind of evidence do you want? Just because the problem doesn't occur often doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed! And I don't think humans should have the luxury to play without slayers against good vamps anyway.
Whatever, it's not like one of us is going to convince the other and we're not even sure sam will bother with this suggestion ^_^^

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:49 pm

you are sadly true there. . . Sammm hasn't been highly active, and with Starcraft 2 out. . . . we might just be learning how to type better with these messages. . . SO SAD >.>

(and I already stated counters for invuln, early game the easiest one is pulse staff, engineers you have to buy a unit that serves NO value later game (pulse staff does because of it becoming burst gem) because of the fact of tower spam and low teleport space. If anything is rigged it is 6 more ranged repairers stacked on what you already have repairing your wall. . . but hey, that is my opinion. . .)

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:33 pm

Kurisu wrote:I already stated counters for invuln, early game the easiest one is pulse staff
Pulse can't kill full hp slayers when they are level 5+ (2'30" in the game assuming they blink before 1') but yeah if you can keep the slayers level low + have the gold to buy pulse, it would work but not for long because slayers will level sooner or later.
Kurisu wrote:engineers you have to buy a unit that serves NO value later game
Who cares if they are useless later in the game, they are basically free unlike pulse. And they have no value late game because high level stomp does a much better job at disabling any repair unit.
Kurisu wrote:If anything is rigged it is 6 more ranged repairers stacked on what you already have repairing your wall. . . but hey, that is my opinion. . .)
Well I don't share your opinion. Engineers are easily countered early game and they get useless late game because of stomp. On the other hand invuln range is greater than stomp thus 5-6 slayers could make a wall permanently invulnerable. The only counter to this is soulburn but it's expensive and it only works well if you have some vamps with you to match the slayers.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:37 am

So, how do you suggest double basing then?

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:08 am

Heh, build in the same base and pool resources? The only difference is that the one who can't use slayer's invuln on the wall might as well play without slayers.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:45 am

>.< That's no fun, I still don't like the idea, find more than two people who feel that it should be fixed, and I will change my mind. . . .

But for now two things are for sure:

1. I dislike the idea
2. This might just be a waste of posts considering the possibility of the map ever being updated.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:47 pm

What about having two modes?Novice mode would allow slayers to invul for allied bases.expert mode would mean slayers would not be able to invul for allied bases.

Reason:bnet pubs suck.if a vamp breaks their base,it means mega feed->probably gg for humans.Mass Invul will be needed to prevent/slow the vamp's progress.

for an in house game where everyone knows what they are doing,the host can choose expert mode which will prevent allied invul.

getting an urn after killing a slayer will still not give you enough money to get dmg to crack their walls by 4 min.I am willing to release the updated figures if you still aren't convinced of the lack of gold.

using lvl2 infernal before 4mins is easily countered.invul 1-2 times and finish off the infernal.no money can be gained from using the infernal.your distract with infernal and rape emmy wall tactic can only work if your main vamp has enough damage to rape the emmy wall in the first place.400-600 dmg with lvl 2 infernal?Piece of cake.I can take my own sweet time to heal my wall after dealing with the infernal.And then after 4 mins.gg vamp.here come the comets.

obviously in an inhouse game,humans divine shield and get gold.stomp or rings wouldn't work.

Killing 2 slayers would not give you sufficient mana capacity to use claws.(lvl still too low).Even if you did,it is extremely risky if there are slayers close by or if there are towers.

in an inhouse game,people are familiar with their bases and know how much to upgrade human motivation.closer they are to grave,the more upgrades they do.3 upgrades as you said is frankly retarded if graves can be positioned close to their workers.

That means no gold.

two modes means you can continue playing with noobs who need to be allied saved while I continue playing with decent humans who know what they are doing.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by [X3]RoXaS on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:26 pm

by adding a human who completely focus on slayers without building base surely harras the vampire that slow down the vampire farm time a lot. Cool

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:04 pm

Kurisu wrote:So now what if you play like clue or gr3g, without a slayer. . . no allies to help you there. (Whenever I choose to play like them as human, I always ask to make sure someone can cover for me. . .) That would kill half of that strategy too. . . .

Plus the engineer can still repair other human walls, two level 1 engineers can easily counter any starting vamp. . . .

I still don't think that this should be removed, if you can show my SUBSTANTIAL evidence that this is required, then I might change my mind, but saying this has happened a couple times when this has been a part of the game since the beginning is not good enough for me >.> (Yes I know I am being stubborn. . . ) Very Happy

If you decide to go without slayers you have to accept the risks,too bad.I have rarely seen games where no allies get slayers at all.Unless (a)they think there are no feeders,(b) they think the vamp is retarded.So you can be assured that there most probably will be slayers.Invul is damn essential for that precious few seconds you get to remedy your situation.(lvl3 infernal,unholy graves,v3x,stopping the vamp from breaking your wall etc)

mass engineers?You just added another point why invul should be nerfed.if that is already sufficient(coupled with health walls),wouldn't another 10-12 slayers make human more imba?

And about double basing.4 slayers invul is gay.not to mention 4 lvl 2 health walls and 4 lvl 1 health walls.A vamp with 2k+ dmg can't even take an emerald wall off a double base if that happens(unless you claw etc).mass engineers,mass invul,mass ensnare.Not to mention the lumber saved if one of them decided to just tech.(no need to build walls defences etc)I see no reason not to take away allied invul when the pros of double basing are so great.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:12 pm

You still don't see the point, that has been in there since the beginning, think of it as a "tradition" thing.

So far only you and englocked have complained, I am not sure if roxas is complaining. . . lol

Plus, we might be just upping our post count with this, due to the fact that SC2 is out and has been out, and Sammm has already asked about SC2 for vamp speed, so, I am closing this topic for now. Arguing it anymore won't change anything, feel free to PM me if you disagree.

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