PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

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PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:21 pm

i got some feed(there were feeders who didn't upgrade harvester hp),had my damage upped to 1.5k,and was planning to break 3-4 bases before the 3 min mark.However each time i went to a base,the human's 2 slayers would come to make the wall invulnerable even when i could break it already.That i had no problem with.But 3-4 more slayers from other humans came to invul as well.That makes a vamp's life difficult as hell...even if i had farmed for a demonic,the humans would just need to up emmy and slayer invul for each other.5 humans=>10 slayers.their cd for invul will overlap.so no matter where i go i won't be able to break any wall even if i had 6 tigers.Because they would keep doing invul.Can sam please fix this.And yes,i did meet up with such a cooperative human team.Point is I had feed,i deserve a sporting chance of at least scratching the wall, don't I?lvl 3 infernal against normal gold mines.perma invul until infernal times out.MAKE players be more responsible for their own fates!

I strongly feel that invul should NOT be a permanent method to save oneself,rather it should be a SHORT and TEMPORARY one to allow humans to upgrade their walls and towers should the vamp be able to break the walls.

If you want to make vamping to be more playable I suggest only 1 slayer per player and removing the ability of allies to help invul for each other.There are many ways allies can help out as well,such as being on the lookout for vamp and alerting their allies,or helping to build wall,or helping to build comets.we DON't need an idiot proof method against vamp(stomp aoe not so huge then because of vamp's low lvl) that requires TOTALLY no skill.

One more thing that is really imba.Those sentries with invulnerabilty and a freaking long DURATION.pls decrease the duration of such wards or enable a cooldown timer on wards to balance the game.

Invulnerability needs major nerfing,otherwise vamping is unplayable.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Greg on Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:34 am

This is just 100% non sense no need to read it even to defend my point because it is not hard at all to win.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:22 pm

Any idea how hard it is to get feed at early game? (some pro humans and some noobs)
chain lightning =>human motivation upgrade
assasin=>deto workers/anti assasin
wall=> slayers(i had 6 of them at one go)<=idiot proof method.upgrading armour ,walls,towers repairing.
infernal lvl 1 easily destroyed by tower and slayer.
2 crit+ 1 stomp=>it's possible to blink off even if your slayer is the first to be attacked
claws of dreadlord=>you don't have the mana capacity to use it early game,you need levels in order to get that capacity.

the problem with vamp now is that it is too hard to get feed.especially when the humans upgrade human motivation to >1k hp, and build emerald walls and health walls to heal.How is the vamp going to get feed?even when he gets an urn and some graves. his cl is only at lvl 2 and we won't be able to kill any workers if the human detos.and when he gets money from his urn to buy an assasin people deto their workers/anti assasin by building slayer taverns and tents.but this isn't my point.I already know how hard it is to get feed with pro humans.But why is it still that difficult even with some feed?that shouldn't be the case.And that's why i want slayers nerfed.Vampirism is right now imbalanced,with the human players having the edge.

I don't like people saying that it is nonsense and that there's no point defending your point.This is a suggestion area,there's no reason to scorn at other player's suggestion,even if you're a mod.give me the reasons why it's nonsense and we'll have a discussion.


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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by iLawlAtYou on Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:15 am

Level your stomp, stun slayers when they invul.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:17 pm

You neglected the fact that low lvl stomp has a small aoe.You need a stomp of at least 6+.it won't hit the slayers.Secondly,you stomp once,and the person blinks his next slayer out of range of your stomp which is ridiculously easy for low level stomps.then the next person blinks his slayer to invul.I play mostly on garena and i must say for the first 6 mins,i've been seeing people helping each other to invul,not once not twice but more than 4 times.In a SPEED game where every second counts,i disagree with this foolproof,time-delaying method which early low level vamp has no counter to.

you said to level the stomp.The problem is having no feed to level the stomp.

Early game makes or breaks a vamp.With little feed before the 3-4 min mark you're more or less screwed unless the humans are noobs.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by mamangan on Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:21 am

Not all bases can anti-sin, as far as I know. If you ever get assassin, you could at least get 2-4 harvesters before a player reacts to detonate. You should at least get 150 gold before 3rd minute though.

I believe that it isn't about the slayers here, it's the workers hp to fix. First feed comes from workers, you only aim at slayers if you can't kill any worker.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:29 pm

you obviously haven't read the post I previously made.LOOK up please.WORKER's HP can be upgraded.150 gold you kidding me?with no feed at all all you will have is an urn by 3 min.it would probably take more than 3 min since the vamp comes out at 1 min mark.Secondly,On bnet and garena,the common practice is to play 5v1or 6v1.Not all base can be assasin proofed.But enough bases can be assasin proofed that assasins are made useless in a pro-human game.want me to say some?bot left,bot right,bot mid,top mid,mid right.that's already 5 bases that are commonly used and that can be assasin proofed.And please ,read all before posting about things that are already said

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by iLawlAtYou on Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:10 am

Grave and Chain Lighting.

Get urn at 2nd minute (from income is enough).

Get assassin at around 4th minute.

Assassinate workers.

Anti Sin with taverns? Burst Gem

Anti Sin with comets? Blink dodge.

Anti Sin with oracles? Tank with vamp.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by mamangan on Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:49 am

deuuuuude wrote:you obviously haven't read the post I previously made.LOOK up please.WORKER's HP can be upgraded.150 gold you kidding me?with no feed at all all you will have is an urn by 3 min.it would probably take more than 3 min since the vamp comes out at 1 min mark.Secondly,On bnet and garena,the common practice is to play 5v1or 6v1.Not all base can be assasin proofed.But enough bases can be assasin proofed that assasins are made useless in a pro-human game.want me to say some?bot left,bot right,bot mid,top mid,mid right.that's already 5 bases that are commonly used and that can be assasin proofed.And please ,read all before posting about things that are already said

So you don't understood what I said. To clear this, I would like to recall about my previous suggestion on workers(Not sure if it is here or on the older forum). To fix the workers hp is to fix anything related to it, be it the hp itself or the upgrades. I have stated before that as long as the first chain of the vamp is released, there would no be any worker hp upgrade. That assures that no matter how noob the vamp is or pro the humans are there is a sure decent amount of feed.

You do know those bases, but do others know all that? But by posting it here you just got your pants down caught.

Nuff said.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:02 pm

first there was nothing in your previous post that suggested you had made a suggestion,or what your suggestion is about.

secondly,yes...There are many people who know those bases in garena.Bnet? 99% of the people,tech slow,defend poorly, don't wall properly or upgrade their worker's hp.It's the garena people i have trouble with.

thirdly,even a half decent human detos his workers,he rarely feeds more than 3 furbolgs.As such,getting feed through assasin is extremely slow unless he feeds a lot of fangs,or if the human is really noob enough to feed workers over and over again.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by mamangan on Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:28 am

But now you know I had. I wouldn't like to bother you to search for it.

Maybe it's time to fix the terrain, all bases should be reachable by CL.

3 furbolgs is 180 gold, if you can have at least have 5 players doing so, thats 900 gold, if others have fangs, that is better. Along with the momentary donations, maybe you could fund for Demonic Remains or get a bin laden and destroy all those anti-sin buildings if tower HP is not upgraded.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:50 pm

1.It's not only the cl,it's also about the distance to grave.

2.if the first person gets assasin,the others will be alerted and take anti assasin measures.they will more likely target the assasin instead of the vamp once they know that assasin is being used.Even a seeing tower will help(placed close to harvesters).If they see the assasin before it reaches the harvesters.they will deto and by the time the assasin blinks to the houses,it gets NOTHING

3.even with tp,using assasin on all bases would take time,and by then everyone would be at least cc or boo.

4. getting demonic remains does not mean vamp will be able to break into the base.if you get your feed under 4min,yes,demonic remains still stand a chance but after that with upgraded walls frontal assault with demonic remains simply do not work.(unless you claw)


Last edited by deuuuuude on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:07 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:03 pm

I have several replays showing the power of slayer invulnerability.5 slayers making an emmy wall impossible to break even with 2k + dmg.

My suggestion would be to keep the 2 slayers per human player,BUT remove the ability of allied slayers to invul for others.

If this suggestion is ignored,then vampspeed will continue to be a imbalanced game where all you need to do is mass invul for each other.

Also please remove the ability of health walls to heal allied walls.Health walls play an important role in ensuring that wall hp never drops drastically.Mass heals will only ensure vamp will not be able to enter the base.The only time health walls have not much effect on walls is when the vamp gets kitties.But before that,it is a game changer.PLease fix this.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:25 am

That early in the game, I prefer them to waste it, slayer's invulnerability technique has a long cooldown in the beginning, it isn't that hard to stop, just let them use it, then hit. Or if you are really desparate, that early in the game they are vulnerable to staff, just go nuts. . . . Removing this skill would make vampires even more powerful, which would make this game easier than it is.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by mamangan on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:06 am

Kurisu wrote:That early in the game, I prefer them to waste it, slayer's invulnerability technique has a long cooldown in the beginning, it isn't that hard to stop, just let them use it, then hit. Or if you are really desparate, that early in the game they are vulnerable to staff, just go nuts. . . . Removing this skill would make vampires even more powerful, which would make this game easier than it is.

I'm sure he would point that not all slayers can be killed with just one staff. And another thing would be that it might slow you down from getting bigger items.

And for assassin to be effective, scatter graves and shades to teleport at. 3 shades + graves can at least cover 5 bases or so.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:11 pm

Well, you could kill multiple, and each one is worth 50, so it wouldn't impede you extremely.

And you are correct on the second statement ^^

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by mamangan on Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:12 pm

Some calculations:

Required Hp to survive staff, 30001, which converts into 30001/120 = 250 str.
Around level 8+ will a slayer survive the staff. If you had your slayer before vampire spawns, it would take the slayer to be in level 8 at 4:30 mark to be so. so the vamp should have the staff before that time, 250 gold is something that should be thought off if gold rarely comes.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:53 pm

Kurisu wrote:That early in the game, I prefer them to waste it, slayer's invulnerability technique has a long cooldown in the beginning, it isn't that hard to stop, just let them use it, then hit. Or if you are really desparate, that early in the game they are vulnerable to staff, just go nuts. . . . Removing this skill would make vampires even more powerful, which would make this game easier than it is.

having them invul gives them the time to gather gold from their mines(to hit the 15 or 30 sec mark)...long enough for all of them to upgrade their emerald wall.

As I said before,early game is crucial.Any gold spent on items that will not return you a profit/allow you to break a base in the shortest time possible will screw your game.things like pulse.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:22 am

But, you should have a tele staff and graves correct? Jump around and hit everyone of them, and as I said, you could use staff. . . . . Even if it doesn't hit them, if it makes them low enough you might be able to just bolt em and finish them off. OR mix it with a grave or 10. You could just attack the slayer spawn in the beginning too, and slow them down. Level 8 slayer won't happen until around 5 mins anyways, and that is when they are immune. . . You can do this, this move is put in to balance, so what if they abuse, that means they are just wasting it on that one base, you can just attack again. Then they won't have it. . .

Overall, I completely disagree with this. Removing slayer's invulnerability is like slowing down the vampires attack. . . Just can't do it.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:43 pm

Here are the figures to disprove what you said kurisu.

The timings below have been proven in single player mode.

58 secs:vamp spawns
1 min 30 sec:14 gold
2min:27 gold
2min 7 sec:30 gold(here i got an urn)
After getting an urn on the main vamp,
2 min 30 secs: 9 gold
3 min:72 gold
3min 30 secs:84gold
4 min:147 gold
4 min 30 secs:160 gold
5 min:222 gold

what do these figures say?If you are in a feedless environment,gold is REALLY scarce.Where is the gold to get the pulse, rod,urn and damage upgrades/helm(choose1) before 5 min,let alone 4 min?You probably will get the pulse without the tp rod by 4 min 30 secs if you had raided the pool twice.

You will at most get 1 slayer kill per pool raid because the other untargetted slayers will blink off once the stun wears off.

by 5 mins i believe a decent human could EASILY have gotten enough gold to upgrade his walls not once,but at least 2 times.(though 1 is enough to stop you).And at 5 mins all you have is 222 gold,which is insufficient for a pulse.Before 5 mins,any strategy requiring the use of pulse is not applicable.You still have to contend with the fact that at this time you won't have enough to break emerald wall.

Let's suppose you get your pulse at the 4 min 30 mark because you had successfully raided the pool twice.By then all you have is pulse +urn,nothing else.Not enough damage to break emerald and no tp rod to get out of sticky situations.

You get your pulse at 4 min 30sec.By that time the humans could have upgraded their wall.Even with pulse,there will be some slayers that will escape.And those that escaped could blink and still continue to help invul allied bases.Even if you did get the first one that blinks to help invul with pulse,what's stopping the next slayer from blinking in and using invul?Nothing.

Your point on wasting their invul is ridiculous.10 slayers doing invul...at least 1 full minute.By the time the 1 min is over,all the humans' walls would be upgraded.And you only get pulse and urn by 4 min 30 sec.how do you expect to break their bases at all with a pulse and urn and pathetic 400-600 dmg?

bottomline is your strategy does not work because you lack both the gold and time to implement it.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by deuuuuude on Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:15 pm

my suggestion was to remove invulnerability for ALLIED BASES.You can still use your own slayers to invul.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:30 pm

I'm with op! Also make humans not able to repair allied structures!
iLawlAtYou wrote:Anti Sin with taverns? Burst Gem
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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:24 am

I just played with four humans that all knew what they were doing the other day, everyone had worker motivation at least level 3, they all had upgraded walls with research complete, they all had cc at around 6-7 mins and they all had slayers that came out before I spawned. There were no feeders, but gold wasn't that scarce. I will look into it, but the last time I have lost was when i started playing, I highly doubt this is ineffective.

If you know you are in a game like that (people pump out slayers before the 1 min mark) you should get crit level 1 and stun level 2 as your first skills, because obviously their bases aren't going to be easy to break. Your first stop instead of attacking a base is to kill the slayers, with crit level 1 and that stun you should easily be able to pick off one or two, that is more than enough for you to grab urn earlier than you did. Your strategy was off, I wasn't thinking about your specific situation, but if you adjust your strategy from the beginning you can easily implement your staff. It isn't a waste of gold, nothing in the game is a waste of gold if you are good at mixing it in, it was all put there for a reason. People have differing strategies. My strategy IS valid because I USE what I say all the time, I am not throwing out things I haven't tried.

In extreme circumstances you could have used bats also, they are relatively cheap and do amazing damage close range, if you run into their base, you might catch a human off guard, or a slayer for that matter, and bring the slayer down to low power and just pulse it away.

And don't forget, you don't have to get TP rod that early in the game if you get something else, you can still get concoction and run away. That is free, so you should have it at the beginning anyways.

If you wait until 4:30 to get your pulse, the obviously don't do it, slayers are too strong by then. Infact, slayers are generally too strong starting around the 3 minute mark, you will just have to use your gold for something else. Have you ever tried level two infernal? Great distraction/tower killer early game. You can kill an emerald wall with your inf hitting everything else.

Maybe spend your money on a couple shades and get the first level upgrade, go in and hit them on one side of the base, have a shade positioned at another and tele to it, (this will only cost about 215 gold to do) as they are using invuln on that one base, you have just avoided it and jumped to another.

Or maybe you could get claws of dreadlord and level 1 shield and killed the wall, used invuln, healed yourself and kill the base. Level 1 shield is useful, and that is one thing I used a lot, just stun the base because the range of the invuln isn't that long at that point in the game, and run in and use it.

There are so many possibilties to doing this, and many more too, slayer invuln is a little rigged yes, but it is avoidable.


Last edited by Kurisu on Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Englocked on Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:06 am

What is your point? Vamps can win using different strategies so slayer invuln is not rigged? confused

On any version it was possible to win as human or as vamp (as long as all humans aren't as good as you)but it doesn't mean everything was fine and balanced. There are a couple of imba things that already got fixed, some will be? (who knows) and some won't. I for one consider mass slayer invuln rigged because it's easy to do and it can't be countered early in the game.

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Re: PLEASE REMOVE SLAYER INVUL FOR ALLIED BASES

Post by Kurisu on Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:38 pm

But it can. . . . run from base to base, there isn't a solution to this other than removing it, in which that would HORRIBLY unbalance the game. Vampires can go invuln for a short period of time, so can humans. Lets just remove the concoction why don't we, it gives us vampires a free escape >.> See what I mean? Invuln has been there for a long time in speed, taking that away would really change a lot of people's thoughts, I am not arguing that it isn't rigged, I am arguing that it shouldn't be removed.

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