60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

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60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by GosuSheep on Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:30 am

Hi All,

I have played 2 games as vamp against my clan mates: Winkle_Puff and Chakra. Usually, I would have no problem killing them. Now, I cannot find ANY way to kill them, and we just drag the game out until they get GG tower.

Here's my setup:

Vamp:Lvl 60-80

Skills:
20 to Stomp
20 to Heal
20 to critical strike
(something like that)

Items:
Immunity Shield
Mask of Undeath
Vampiric Concoction
Tiger Klaw
Tiger Klaw
Rod of Teleportation
Multiple upgrades to health and damage (the 3000 gold cost one)

Lich: Lvl 22+

Skills:
Death and Decay
~10 to Damage aura
~10 to Speed aura

Vampiric Concoction
Urn
Shield +800
Rod
Book of Soulburn
(Something like that)

So, here's what's going on. Both humans have anti v3x with a bunch of super comet towers. Both humans have 6 super healing towers (two lvl3, two lvl2, two lvl1). Both humans have 2 slayers with max Invul Aura and Shield of Lights Item (immu thingy). Both humans have Divine Wall in front of Gold wall in front of purity wall. Both humans have about 10 to 30 super comet towers.

These guys are good. They alternate using reveal and sending their slayers around to always see what items I have. If they notice me getting a v3 missile, they prepare divine wall to shield. Their entire base is surrounded by multiple rows of goldmines, so marines wouldn't help too much. They both has anti-assassin build.

This is what I do:
I send my lich and vamp to attack the divine wall. I try to keep my lich a far enough distance that it's not too close to the comets, but it still gives ~70% damage increase to vamp. I make sure to Conc my lich RIGHT after I conc my vamp so that the comets don't automatically attack my lich and kill it. I continuously stomp to perma-stun repairers. I attack the wall and get ready to heal when it's needed. I can't stay too long as after a while the comets are too much. That's why I have the rod; they like using net...

This is what THEY do:
Wait until the health of the divine wall is low and use divine shield. Wait until that is done, use invul with 1 slayer. Wait until that is done and invul with the other slayer. If needed, the other human brings over his slayers and invuls as well. Again, these slayers have Shield of Lights and cannot be stunned. Once I get to the base, they focus on my lich killing it instantly and getting rid of my damage increase. Then Ensnare constantly so I cannot escape from comets without a rod of teleportation. All the while, they are repairing and healing this damn divine wall. After a while, I have to teleport out, I don't have enough health.

I just.... can't win.... Any help on this?

I had an idea on how to beat one of them, but these guys are so quick (sheep tag pros) that I had my doubts. It would be to have my slayer buffed with 2 masks of undeath, immu shield, gilgamesh, a v3, and a book of soul burn. Have my lich hang out in the middle with immu shield, shields, and a v3x. I would go near to the human's anti v3x super comet layout and v3 the bottom comet. After killing that tower, I'd soulburn him and continuously stomp. Then with my lich, I'd send the v3x. I could've tried it, but never got around to it. Furthermore, it's possible that they invul the comet when they see v3 launched. They could kill me while I'm using v3. I don't know - - -
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:50 am

Do you have 60k+ gold left or did you farm that for the whole game prior to attacking them?

If it's the former you can mass marines (5 to 8 ) and shoot down their comets at a 4000 range using eye of seeing with your lich aura. You have to focus fire the comets or you can't take them down..

If it's the latter scenario I think you can surpass the conc and pick up a kitty because that divine wall (fully armored) will be a 3-4 hit deal. It might not be a good idea to leave your conc but I think that's the best wall busting thing you can do.. As soon as you finish one of them off and assuming you get more feed, keep stacking marines and blow the last guys base open.

There are definitely end-end game balances because they could make a slayer wall in front of a gold wall with Doom armor, 3 mask of undeath and a shield of light on each slayer backed by a super wall of health as support. No vamp combination can kill that slayer wall

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:53 am

Why was your vamp level 60-80 ? it should be either <60 or 100 with level upgrades.
Why would you want to use your lich to boost your dps when you can destroy walls in no time? Try getting 3 kitty or level 100 vamp Smile

What you can do :
-get a marine early and [censored] up their anti assassin build.
-get more marines at mid-game to destroy their gold income, diamonds goldmines are very good targets.
-get even more marines at late game to either destroy their towers or destroy their goldmines and blink in, they can hardly rebuild goldmines because marines tend to one shot any builder and if they try to use their main builder -> permastun + v3x
-Use v3x, press alt, click on human health bar. That 6 comets thing does not counter v3x.

And end game towers are magic immune so v3 won't work!

rqx wrote:
There are definitely end-end game balances because they could make a slayer wall in front of a gold wall with Doom armor, 3 mask of undeath and a shield of light on each slayer backed by a super wall of health as support. No vamp combination can kill that slayer wall

Did you try heart of blood ?

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:30 am

Too risky to try heart when they have spiked walls, faerie fire walls etc.. Slayers shouldn't be so strong anyways

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:44 pm

rqx wrote:Too risky to try heart when they have spiked walls, faerie fire walls etc.. Slayers shouldn't be so strong anyways
It may be risky but it's the only solution vs such slayer wall, just don't attack spiked walls, faerie fire is countered by mask (When you think about it mask counters faerie better than immunity shield). Concoction helps you vs cripple and allow you to destroy spiked wall if your dps are high enough (3 kitty or level100). I was thinking like you not so long ago but now I believe that slayers walls are ok because it cost a lot of gold to pimp slayers that much and that 2 slayers are needed in most bases to block the entrance.


Last edited by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by alvinchiew on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:45 pm

last time, when i play i get
3 tiger claw
1 invul
1 immunity shield
and 1 mask

6 marines + lich ( with dmg aura ) for klling end game comets + builders and houses, attacking the houses is good for delaying the human to farm more wood, once they make another house just simply shoot it down and slowly keep attacking the end games, until leave 3-4 endgames then my vamp simply atk the walls and in the base

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:12 pm

Englocked wrote:
rqx wrote:Too risky to try heart when they have spiked walls, faerie fire walls etc.. Slayers shouldn't be so strong anyways
It may be risky but it's the only solution vs such slayer wall, just don't attack spiked walls, faerie fire is countered by mask (When you think about it mask counters faerie better than immunity shield). Concoction helps you vs cripple and allow you to destroy spiked wall if your dps are high enough (3 kitty or level100). I was thinking like you not so long ago but now I believe that slayers walls are ok because it cost a lot of gold to pimp slayers that much and that 2 slayers are needed in most bases to block the entrance.
I don't think this is a really feasible solution.. Lvl 6 fairie fire is -960 armor and when you get crippled and spammed with 6+ lvl 3 supers w/ purity aura, you don't have much time to do much. I don't even know if an activated heart can kill such a slayer with 4,200 armor @ 100% damage reduction.. Anyways, heart shouldn't be the only way to beat a slayer, especially if you reach lvl 100 and can't scratch a loaded slayer.

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by SaMmM on Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:15 pm

Next version, critical strike will tear slayers apart.

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:31 pm

rqx wrote:]I don't think this is a really feasible solution.. Lvl 6 fairie fire is -960 armor and when you get crippled and spammed with 6+ lvl 3 supers w/ purity aura, you don't have much time to do much. I don't even know if an activated heart can kill such a slayer with 4,200 armor @ 100% damage reduction.. Anyways, heart shouldn't be the only way to beat a slayer, especially if you reach lvl 100 and can't scratch a loaded slayer.

It's feasible, just try it when you get the chance. Faerie is -960 but mask is + 1000 so you got 40 more armor than if you were using immunity shield instead. I agree that cripple is annoying but as I said concoction really does help. And towers actually are dealing a bit less dps, so it is not an argument.

Anyway I agree that heart shouldn't be the only way to beat a slayer, and I'm glad that it will be changed in next version :p

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:16 pm

My tip;

Inventory;
Heart of Blood
Vampire Concrid
Mask of Undeath
Mask of Undeath
Tiger Claw
Doom Armour/The thing which has the icon of Satanic in DotA

Lich;
Shield +800
Immunity Shield
V3 Missile
Doom Armour
Vampire Concrid
Acid Bomb

Tactic of usage;
Heart of Blood on any walls beside Spike.
On Tank and Spike Wall, usage of Acid Bomb before attacking with Concrid is a solution. Tank Wall can be destroyed with Heart of Blood purely, but may take a lot of HP from Heart of Blood. Spike can also be destroyed with V3 Missile.

Gold Mine trouble?
Hold position in front of the Gold Mines and the vampire would break them down by 3-4 Gold Mines/s.

Rod of Teleportation is useless in late-game unless you are stupid enough to run into a tree trap.
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:15 pm

!|cff0000ffClue wrote:
Rod of Teleportation is useless in late-game unless you are stupid enough to run into a tree trap.

Or unless slayers use ensnare so you can't get away from towers range?

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by alvinchiew on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:37 pm

u still have Heal/invul/shield, unless that base are spammed with end games THEN rod of tele got some use, if not i don't see any ways you want to have it in your inventory

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:13 pm

Heal does nothing at late game, invul is ok but it doesn't cancel ensnare and shield doesn't counter ensnare at all.

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:16 pm

Englocked wrote:Heal does nothing at late game, invul is ok but it doesn't cancel ensnare and shield doesn't counter ensnare at all.
Completely wrong. If you're smart, get out of enemy tower range, drop highest stats bonus items on ground then heal and loot them back up. I take roughly 1.7sec to do that.
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by alvinchiew on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:29 pm

!|cff0000ffClue wrote:
Englocked wrote:Heal does nothing at late game, invul is ok but it doesn't cancel ensnare and shield doesn't counter ensnare at all.
Completely wrong. If you're smart, get out of enemy tower range, drop highest stats bonus items on ground then heal and loot them back up. I take roughly 1.7sec to do that.

agreed Very Happy but there's still a chance that the human notice and either
A) Use slayer pick item up OR
B) Destroy the item OR
C) there's some hidden tower in the base killing the vamp
....

And Englocked invul isn't for cancelling Ensnare it is for invulnerable for the few second and healing after it stops, have u tried keep invul while hitting the base? if follow ur items on post 1 added stats, u could dmg the walls, just keep invul and after a while heal then keep spamming invul while hitting alien

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:35 pm

!|cff0000ffClue wrote:
Englocked wrote:Heal does nothing at late game, invul is ok but it doesn't cancel ensnare and shield doesn't counter ensnare at all.
Completely wrong. If you're smart, get out of enemy tower range, drop highest stats bonus items on ground then heal and loot them back up. I take roughly 1.7sec to do that.

I knew about that but never thought about using it in vampirism.Ok I was wrong about heal doing nothing at late game. But my point still stand since you can't do that when u're ensnared in towers range.

And alvinchiev thanks for reminding me what is invul and how to use it..... Anyway is this really going to help when vamp can't move ?


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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by SaMmM on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:49 pm

There will be a counter to Ensnare next version.

There will also be another imba late game item for vamp. Not going to say what tho.

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:00 pm

SaMmM wrote:There will be a counter to Ensnare next version.

Nice but I hope that this counter won't cost an inventory slot. What if the current immunity shield could get upgraded into a greater one that would provide immunity to ensnare as well?


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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:17 pm

alvinchiew wrote:
!|cff0000ffClue wrote:
Englocked wrote:Heal does nothing at late game, invul is ok but it doesn't cancel ensnare and shield doesn't counter ensnare at all.
Completely wrong. If you're smart, get out of enemy tower range, drop highest stats bonus items on ground then heal and loot them back up. I take roughly 1.7sec to do that.

agreed Very Happy but there's still a chance that the human notice and either
A) Use slayer pick item up OR
B) Destroy the item OR
C) there's some hidden tower in the base killing the vamp
....

And Englocked invul isn't for cancelling Ensnare it is for invulnerable for the few second and healing after it stops, have u tried keep invul while hitting the base? if follow ur items on post 1 added stats, u could dmg the walls, just keep invul and after a while heal then keep spamming invul while hitting alien
I take less than 2 seconds to completely use Health Beam and loot back the item, so chances of losing my items are 0% even if he noticed.
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:23 pm

2 seconds is more than needed if humans know what you want to do. Would work once if they noticed and weren't ready to blink but the second time, you would lose your items for sure unless humans nicely wait 2 seconds before blinking.

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by GosuSheep on Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:00 am

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will attempt these new tactics next game I play with these kids.
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:04 am

Englocked wrote:2 seconds is more than needed if humans know what you want to do. Would work once if they noticed and weren't ready to blink but the second time, you would lose your items for sure unless humans nicely wait 2 seconds before blinking.
2 seconds is not enough for a human to notice and destroy. Reason;
1. When End Game Towers are present, situation around vampire are very laggish.
2. It is not like he can select his Slayer/End Game Tower to break it since it takes roughly 1 second for projectile to travel to item.
3. I'm smart.
4. I'm very smart.
5. Please ignore 3-5...
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:49 am

1. Good computer solve -> laggy for you and not for humans
2. Maybe he can't destroy it but he can surely blink and steal if he's decent. Two seconds to blink and pick items is enough, a good human would need half a second, even less if he knows what you want to do.

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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:17 pm

Englocked wrote:2. Maybe he can't destroy it but he can surely blink and steal if he's decent. Two seconds to blink and pick items is enough, a good human would need half a second, even less if he knows what you want to do.
Human reaction takes roughly 0.7 second to respond, which I get the information from my brother, a psychologist. Universal blink takes at least 1 full second. Even if you used shift function, it would not be fast enough, instead slow it down. I have already tried and proven it through the best human i know, which takes 0.2 second to reach and steal a coin from a building in vampirism fire. He could not grab the item i dropped.
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Re: 60k+ gold as vamp and still losing

Post by Englocked on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:28 pm

!|cff0000ffClue wrote:
Human reaction takes roughly 0.7 second to respond, which I get the information from my brother, a psychologist. Universal blink takes at least 1 full second. Even if you used shift function, it would not be fast enough, instead slow it down. I have already tried and proven it through the best human i know, which takes 0.2 second to reach and steal a coin from a building in vampirism fire. He could not grab the item i dropped.

Human reaction takes roughly 0.7 second to respond and your friend manage to reach and steal a coin in 0.2 second. That doesn't make sense unless
1) your friend is not human (not likely)
2) your brother was wrong about 0.7 second (likely, just looked in wikipedia : Mean simple reaction time for young adults is approximately 190 milliseconds for visual stimulus)

But what makes even less sense is that your friend can grab coin in 0.2 second and can't steal your items while you drop them and heal. Universal blink seem to take a bit more time than in fire, ok let's say it takes one second in speed and 0 second in Fire (that's wong though, universal blink takes some time in Vamp fire as well). Since your friend takes 0.2 second to steal in Vamp. Fire, he should logically take 1.2 second to steal in Speed.
So I don't really get how you can prevent him from getting your items, unless you are faster than that but you said already that it takes you 2 seconds.

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