Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

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Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:08 pm

GosuSheep had the idea of adding an item courier to prevent trapping but I thought a base recall option on the vampire research center might be the most effective solution for trapping. This recall option would have a cooldown of approx 240-320s and should be used in the event that the main vampire walks into an early/late game trap.

GosuSheep wrote:3.): Research Center Recall
rqx, I am very fond of this idea. Early trapping is a SERIOUS problem with vamp speed; even the best players can be taken down with such misfortune. Please make a new thread about this addressing my original concerns about trapping. This does not seemed imbalanced as long as it has a relatively large cooldown.
ref: http://vsportal.forumotion.com/suggestions-balancing-f8/item-courier-t120.htm

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:40 pm

I don't really like the base recall thing because it would make rod of teleportation less useful and because I like to trap vamps who don't bother to carry rod.
Imagine this scenario, a vamp break in your base using heart of blood along with concoction not to lose much hp after he broke your wall. He doesn't have rod of teleportation, you trap him in with spike wall and he's toasted unless he's smart enough and have enough money to hire a lich + 2 teleport rod (wich would take some time because of the rod of teleporation refreshing cooldown)
Or this one, vamp is about to die due to mass end game towers (and we all know how hard it is to kill vamp when he has his inventory full of the best items) and a well timed net but is able to get out because of the base recall thing?

So basically that base recall thing would make vamp totally impossible to trap (I know it's the point but totally removing traps from the game sucks imo because you remove some strategic aspects of the game) and it allow vamp to save a slot for an additional item, thus making vamp stronger at late game. No more dilemma like "Should I keep my rod or throw it to get an additional mask?" for vamp.

The item courier solution seems a bit better as long as it has a slow movement speed but on the other hand we could just make rod of teleportation free Razz

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:04 pm

Well, I do not agree with free rod no matter how you cut it. Why don't they give you free teleport on your boots of speed in DOTA? Go try to get that implemented..

If you have played a game where you make the perfect trap, the vamp gets no feed at all and is stuck trying to bash an upgraded emerald wall. The only way he could get out is using the vampiric power upgrade, but with no feed he's screwed. Having a free rod does not address trapping as well as a recall option. If you think the vamps are going to use the base recall on you all game, maybe this could be charge based (2 times per research center/game) with a cooldown of 500 seconds.

Imagine this scenario, a vamp break in your base using heart of blood along with concoction not to lose much hp after he broke your wall. He doesn't have rod of teleportation, you trap him in with spike wall and he's toasted unless he's smart enough and have enough money to hire a lich + 2 teleport rod (wich would take some time because of the rod of teleporation refreshing cooldown)
If a vamp gets heart of blood he can't use immunity shield. I will force him out of the base quickly with fairy fire and a combo of end games. Heart of blood is not active for long either, you have time to build more diamond walls with a gob builder or rubies with super tower builder.

The item courier solution seems a bit better as long as it has a slow movement speed but on the other hand we could just make rod of teleportation free
A courier option has many purposes for vamp but it's also a potential escape plan. I am not against having an item courier if it is done right. Consider your above scenario with lich hiring and 2 rods vs a cheap courier and 2 rods.

So basically that base recall thing would make vamp totally impossible to trap (I know it's the point but totally removing traps from the game sucks imo because you remove some strategic aspects of the game) and it allow vamp to save a slot for an additional item, thus making vamp stronger at late game. No more dilemma like "Should I keep my rod or throw it to get an additional mask?" for vamp.
I agree with your concern here.. See modifications in the first part of my reply

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:02 pm

If you have played a game where you make the perfect trap, the vamp gets no feed at all and is stuck trying to bash an upgraded emerald wall. The only way he could get out is using the vampiric power upgrade, but with no feed he's screwed

Well we all know that, why do you say that?

"Having a free rod does not address trapping as well as a recall option".

You keep saying that but I didn't see many arguments except "how unfair it would be if rod would be free"

Even with a big cooldown on base recall, it would still give vamp too much of an advantage. Vamp don't need to spam it, he just has to use it when he's about to die and that only happens when he does a mistake. Since a good vamp rarely do that kind of mistake, it would be practically impossible to defeat a good vamp (except with the end of course). Same issue as with vamp having rod except that rod takes 1 slot in the inventory.

Are you saying a vamp with heart and concoction would never break in your base?
if your answer is "yes that vamp would never break into my base", I suggest you start playing vs better vamps who get this kind of items earlier.
if your answer is "no, sometimes that vamp would break in", then my point still stand.

Btw I don't play dota so I don't know what you were talking about there.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:30 pm

You keep saying that but I didn't see many arguments except "how unfair it would be if rod would be free"
Make your own thread about free rod of teleportation because you are seriously annoying me to no end. I gave you enough reasons and if you don't have enough reading comprehension it's not my problem.

Even with a big cooldown on base recall, it would still give vamp too much of an advantage. Vamp don't need to spam it, he just has to use it when he's about to die and that only happens when he does a mistake. Since a good vamp rarely do that kind of mistake, it would be practically impossible to defeat a good vamp (except with the end of course). Same issue as with vamp having rod except that rod takes 1 slot in the inventory.
Are you saying a vamp with heart and concoction would never break in your base?
if your answer is "yes that vamp would never break into my base", I suggest you start playing vs better vamps who get this kind of items earlier.
if your answer is "no, sometimes that vamp would break in", then my point still stand.
I really don't give a rat's ass about your heart of blood scenario. A vamp using a heart of blood would have a rod of tele as a backup option to get out if they are in a dangerous situation anyways. One item slot at the mid-point of the game that is only in effect for 1-2 escapes is not going to change gameplay strategy significantly.

Btw I don't play dota so I don't know what you were talking about there.
It's a shame you don't because it's the most widely played custom map with a good development team behind it. Too bad you can't fully grasp the implications of your changes when it comes to balancing and once again I am thankful that you are not developing this map.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by SaMmM on Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:41 pm

Vampiric Research Center:
New ability: Recall Vampire
Ability description: Teleports the vampire to the research center.
Cooldown: 360 seconds
Casting time: 20 seconds
Casting range: Whole map

How does this sounds?

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Gippal on Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:49 pm

hurm... the recall thingy is ok...

but if it has a LIMIT!!! i mean who would be dumb enough to be trapped again & again?

hah? =)
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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:02 pm

SaMmM wrote:Vampiric Research Center:
New ability: Recall Vampire
Ability description: Teleports the vampire to the research center.
Cooldown: 360 seconds
Casting time: 20 seconds
Casting range: Whole map
Works for me! It would be even better if there was a limit (some could say the vamp could time his escape).. Also consider a channeling effect for the vampire (uninterrupt-able by ensnare) for the casting time which could be reduced if this was channeling

Gippal wrote:i mean who would be dumb enough to be trapped again & again?

hah? =)
Look no further

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:14 pm

Oops.. My comments on the adding a channeling effect is assuming the vampire is recalled from the research center itself rather than having the vamp casting to teleport back to mid (hence the term recall).

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:17 pm

I gave you enough reasons and if you don't have enough reading comprehension it's not my problem.

Ok, here are your arguments, correct me if I'm wrong.

1) it increase vamp mobility early game
2) it allow vamp to wall jump. Oh really? last time I checked it worked even when rod cost 100gold
3) Shade detection costs the human ~50,000 lumber to start. If you can't place your wall properly, being able to see shades won't help you, vamp can just send more than 1 shade or simply tank :/
4) making rod cost no gold is the same as giving vamp teleport as a base ability. Wrong, rod requires an inventory slot.

So basically there is only one real argument in my opinion : it increase vamp mobility early game. That's utterly imbalanced indeed. Anyway what is 100 gold? you can get that in few seconds if there is a feeder around the middle, 1 chain and by the time you come back you can get your mighty rod of teleportation?

My point with the heart of blood scenario is that the fact that vamp can get trapped gives additional strategies for human.

Too bad you can't fully grasp the implications of your changes when it comes to balancing and once again I am thankful that you are not developing this map.

So much implications indeed, I can't remember humans winning when vamp got teleportation rod before the 2 minuts mark. Imagine if it would cost nothing? It would be the end of humans for sure.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by MySpaceBarBroke on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:20 pm

I'm over this f'ing "rod" business. If your a rod tatic person and you always get it early, and lets say you won that game, imagine free rod?
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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:33 pm

One word : imba. And Imagine if you stack 6 of them in your inventory...

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:45 pm

Make your own damn thread. I already said you were annoying and yet you persist with your fricken rod. Why should the vamp get a free ticket to teleport to wherever the f they want? Instead of teleporting back to base after getting trapped they can teleport to someone's underdeveloped base and start feeding immediately. How about earning such a privilege? 100 gold is peanuts but it's not guaranteed nor is it "one chain" based on 12 bounces.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:30 pm

I can't see why I would make another thread, we both are adressing the same issue.

Instead of teleporting back to base after getting trapped they can teleport to someone's underdeveloped base and start feeding immediately. How about earning such a privilege?

Such privilege? I think you are overestimating the advantage of a better map control at early game. It would just allow vamp to feed faster in the first minuts.

The privilege is to be able to save one slot in your inventory at late game, 1 more mask for example really makes a huge difference. We don't need vamps that
1. have their inventory full of the best items +2. can teleport back to their base anytime.
What happens at late game when vamp have no rod of teleportation is that he has to retreat when his hp drops too much. If he could teleport back to his base for free, even if it is every 5 minuts then he could wait the very last moment, and kill more walls/goldmines. And overall he could play more risky, like instead of going back when his hp is at 1/3, he waits for it to get to 1/5 and so on.. slayer net ? no problem, let's use base recall and play safe before the cooldown is over.
That's more or less how I think it would affect gameplay.

Getting 100 gold early is not garanteed but what if you could get it everytime because of a nice feeder? It would suddenly becomes imba?
And btw chain level 2 bounce 16 times, that's 90 gold. So by the time you get back to your base, you have enough for rod because of the constant lil' gold income.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:37 pm

How about we make more things free? I want a free lunch too.
I want the urn of dracula to be free. I want my vampiric level upgrade to be free and I want the vampire power upgrade free. I want the ring of hell lords to be free. I was going to get those too since I only have to chain lightning once for each. Saves me time.

You obviously know nothing about money management or opportunity costs and I'm not going to lecture you on either of those. Your rod of teleportation for free does NOT solely address base trapping due to dual purposes so make your own fricken thread.

I'm done arguing with you because it's like talking to a brick wall. I'll say it again in caps if you missed it. MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:58 pm

Your rod of teleportation for free does NOT solely address base trapping due to dual purposes so make your own fricken thread.

I know that, I already said it buff vamps a bit. On the other hand neither does your suggestion : it buff vamps big time and makes some human strategies useless.

Don't worry I'm also done arguing since your arguments are not getting better and that I said everything I wanted to.

I'll say it again in caps if you missed it. MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD

If you would have read my post, you would know I didn't miss it.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:06 pm

My suggestion does not buff the vampire at all. A limited base recall with the proposed high casting time and channelling effect would make a vamp immobilized for 15-20 seconds and that has no clear benefit at all.

Your free rod arguments has little to no merit. As I have said I wanted all that other stuff to be free as well. From your logic, it wouldn't change much of the gameplay at all.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:36 pm

Cool down... don't get agitated with such simple stuffs.
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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Silversong on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:17 pm

As I said in the other thread, chances of getting trapped are super-low. Once you're inside a base you will be able to get the funds needed to upgrade your vamp to the point where he can take down even emeralds with ease. No extra items necessary.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by rqx on Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:24 pm

as posted in the other thread

The vamps who are noob enough to get trapped usually don't know about the damage upgrade or they walked into a perfect trap (no feed from CL). Also, the wall doesn't need to be an emerald if you didn't buy rod early.. It could be a higher level wall that cannot be broken with early game ups. I think a Ruby can be done at ~5 minutes. The ideal base recall is one that is a grace teleport if the vamp is just being messed with and he has no viable alternatives. Of course, it should have disadvantages and restrictions so it is only used as a last resort (ie. time casting equivalent of vamp walking to mid + discretionary penalty).

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by !|cff0000ffClue on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:27 pm

rqx wrote:as posted in the other thread

The vamps who are noob enough to get trapped usually don't know about the damage upgrade or they walked into a perfect trap (no feed from CL). Also, the wall doesn't need to be an emerald if you didn't buy rod early.. It could be a higher level wall that cannot be broken with early game ups. I think a Ruby can be done at ~5 minutes. The ideal base recall is one that is a grace teleport if the vamp is just being messed with and he has no viable alternatives. Of course, it should have disadvantages and restrictions so it is only used as a last resort (ie. time casting equivalent of vamp walking to mid + discretionary penalty).
My best ruby record was at 4.26, but my average time is about 5.13
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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:38 am

I got an idear, what about make that base recall thing work only in the first minuts of the game, like the first 4 minuts and also make it works only once?
Later vamps can buy rod, even without feed because of the constant income.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by alvinchiew on Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:05 am

hmmm 1 time ticket to freedom eh.... how bout giving the base recall 5 minute cooldown, 1st time its already loaded after use then the cd begins, 5 minute human/ vamp can do lot of things already

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Englocked on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:00 am

I disagree for two reasons. First of all it would make vamps immune to traps and I believe traps are a part of vampirism games.
Secondly it would allow vamps to play carelessly at late game with an additional item instead of rod of teleportation.

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Re: Addressing Trapping - Base Recall

Post by Silversong on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:41 am

Englocked brings up a good point - it will free up another item slot. Though I'm still more concerned about who gets trapped and why...

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